Essentials Rogue is up!

[AbdulAlhazred]

I really don't get this whole 1/turn SA. I can't see how this will ever be balanced with existing striker bonuses. Rogues in general already have PLENTY of damage output. I'm a little disappointed by the further devaluation of Stealth as a combat tactic too. The whole point of the 2d6 SA was it was supposed to be a bit harder to get. OK, now Ambush Trick makes it close to guaranteed AND you can do it multiple times per round? That might be OK for the Thief depending on how his other sources of damage scale, but the 1/round doesn't seem to make ANY sense to me WRT the existing rogue builds.

 

[shmoo2]

* Dantrag's Bracer's- MBA's target 2 enemies (!) permanently
Ouch. At level 18, they're still pretty much required for every Essentials martial character. Incoming nerf alert.

I hope so.

* Avalanche Hammer- permanent MBA used on a charge does extra [W] damage
There's a whole bunch of charge stuff, but most PCs use an MBA on charge. Nothing new.

Yes, but most PCs using an MBA on a charge don't also get to apply all the stance/trick bonuses used by the new Essential PCs. This is an extra [W] on top of all that.

* Master's Blade- while in stance (permanent for a Knight) +1 to hit with MBA
The good part about this weapon is the daily. It's still a keeper.

I disagree- with the permanent +1 and the excellent daily power, this weapon is too good for the knight.

* Weapon of Myrdoon's Shard- At-will Reach+1 on MBA's
Uh-oh... Change to 1/enc but at-will or MBA

Agreed.

* Dread Reaper PP
@ level 16 MBA's with 2-Handed Weapon get Cleave-like bonus (STR damage to an adjacent enemy)
No prob, it's just bonus damage and you can cleave at lvl 1 already anyway

You are probably right, but 2-Handed Essentials PCs (like the Slayer) will get to cleave in addition to whatever other stance(s) they are in.

Keep the feats or this miniature Giant Space Hamster gets it!

Seriously, they're a good way to make weapon choice meaningful for the Knight and others. (For future expansions, give them the Style keyword so that you can only apply one such feat, in case there are more of them later)

Yeah, I like the MP2 weapon feats too. But as a permanent bonus to ALL of a characters attacks they are too good.
Impaling Spear is as powerful at level 11 as Expertise at level 25- and they stack.
The other ones are almost as good- adding Rattling or Slide 1 to ALL attacks is awesome.

 

[shmoo2]

That said, we still can't really envision how the martial Essentials classes are supposed to keep up with the PH classes without Daily's.
The stances/tricks replace At-wills, and they have encounter powers like Power Strike/Backstab, but how do they replace Daily's?

We haven't seen Cunning Escape or Weapon Mastery at level 5 or some features at level 1, but it would seem that these classes are supposed to hit harder each round than before, without the ability to nova.

 

[mkill]

Yeah, I like the MP2 weapon feats too. But as a permanent bonus to ALL of a characters attacks they are too good.
Impaling Spear is as powerful at level 11 as Expertise at level 25- and they stack.
The other ones are almost as good- adding Rattling or Slide 1 to ALL attacks is awesome.

An attack against Ref is more like +1.5 to hit.
The interesting thing about high accuracy is that there is a natural ceiling. Once you hit on a 2 on d20, you can't get higher. And even before you hit that ceiling it's a lower relative benefit if you already have a high chance to hit.

To make accuracy broken, you need either multiattacks against one target (twin strike etc) or a good control effect like daze or stun. I don't think the Knight will get these.

The slide means that the Knight catches up with tide of iron and other at-wills, 10 levels later. Good, but that's not how you break the game.

I stand by my words that the feats are good, but not game-breaking.

Oh, and welcome to Charop.

 

[shmoo2]

An attack against Ref is more like +1.5 to hit.

According to Kerbarian's Monster Manual stats (link to thread):

* Attacking Reflex or Will instead of AC is effectively about a +3 to hit, with Will being somewhat better. Attacking Fortitude only gets you +1-2, declining at higher levels, and Brutes actually have higher Fortitude than AC.

The interesting thing about high accuracy is that there is a natural ceiling. Once you hit on a 2 on d20, you can't get higher.

Sure, but default 4e math keeps to hit numbers more toward the middle so two +3 bonuses from feats are still significant.
Are you saying it's common for fighters to hit AC on a 2 at level 11?
Otherwise the ability to target Reflex is a significant bonus.

The slide means that the Knight catches up with tide of iron and other at-wills, 10 levels later. Good, but that's not how you break the game.

The slide 1 or target Reflex will happen on every attack, in addition to any stance bonuses, and in addition to any encounter powers applied.
That's much better than using Tide of Iron instead of another power.

Oh, and welcome to Charop.

Huh?

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Did anyone think about the possibility, that some of those feats may even be reprinted in the essential line and are expected in the whole build?

attacking reflex with a light weapon doesn´t sound broken at all, just a nice weapon style choice...

edit: ok, you actually did^^

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I really don't get this whole 1/turn SA. I can't see how this will ever be balanced with existing striker bonuses. Rogues in general already have PLENTY of damage output. I'm a little disappointed by the further devaluation of Stealth as a combat tactic too. The whole point of the 2d6 SA was it was supposed to be a bit harder to get. OK, now Ambush Trick makes it close to guaranteed AND you can do it multiple times per round? That might be OK for the Thief depending on how his other sources of damage scale, but the 1/round doesn't seem to make ANY sense to me WRT the existing rogue builds.

Actually it was stated, that the extra d6 at first and 21st level are there to compensate the lower weapon dice, as combat advantage on every round was expected in the design.

 

[Falstaff]

Haha, thank you, that was exactly my thought on reading some of these posts. "I wasn't sure about 4E before. The design's pretty different from previous editions. It's much more complicated. So I think--wait, they renamed the rogue to the thief? And they added back a feature called 'backstab'? Well, screw those qualms about design! That's all I need to be be convinced!"

Other than that hilarity, the essentials previews are starting to win me over. I still laugh at the people who say this isn't obsoleting the old classes--you do understand it is in their corporate interest to both obsolete them and tell you that they're not obsoleting them, right?--but that's a question of business ethics (e.g., a joke) and not game design.

Yeah, I don't care at all about previous 4E stuff. I'm planning to start an all-essentials campaign in Sept. If it isn't in an Essentials product, it isn't in the campaign. Gonna be very old-school dungeon crawling and exploring with only the class/races options from Heroes of the Fallen Lands.

 

[CovertOps]

I haven't seen anyone mention that a Rogue gets 4 at-will tricks by level 7. This by itself is a change from the 2 at-wills design. However, not that much different from the Wizard if Magic Missile is truly a class feature now.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Actually it was stated, that the extra d6 at first and 21st level are there to compensate the lower weapon dice, as combat advantage on every round was expected in the design.

What is stated and what is actually true by the numbers are two different things, and only the numbers actually matter. Rogues are already perfectly capable of dishing out DPR numbers competitive with any of the other strikers.

All I can say is the stock of Riposte Strike just went up a HUGE amount. The BS rogue with RS and (obviously) backstabber wielding the bastard sword in both hands, just gained a really nice increment of extra damage.

It isn't game breaking but with a build focused on Immediates and Free Action attacks and the right build, not to mention a warlord to help you out, it will be an interesting option. Maybe even more interesting in the case of a melee focused CS rogue as that guy should have few problems at all with the necessary off-turn CA. We'll see how it works out in practice, but I think it may be a bit of a miscalculation.