Essentials -- What happened to Rituals?

There's also the idea that you balance encounters to be as challenging as the DM wants them to be, so if a ritual throws that off (i.e. is useful), the DM just adjusts for that, balancing it out. If you play with that assumption, rituals are just an empty waste of character resources.

Well, if the DM balances all encounters to provide a constant level of challenge, then that +1 sword mentioned above is just as much of an empty waste. You will meet just as hard a challenge with or without the sword, since the DM would be adjusting for it's presence or absence...

In fact, IF you use that assumption, paying for ANY kind of improvement would be a waste, since that improvement would be neutralized by an adjustment to keep the balance.
 
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I am trying DESPERATELY to accept 4E. It has many interesting new features. But... it is more and more simply a "combat strategy" game and almost nothing like a roleplaying adventure game.

I hate being a curmudgeon all the time. But combat is only one part of adventuring. The more I dig into 4E, the more I see how un-DnD it really is.

At this point, 4E is only good for the combat scenarios of an adventure. And I'm going to have to bring out the 1E/2E books for the other half of the game...
At first blush you will probably dislike what I have to say, but please bear with me; there is a point.

D&D has always been primarily about facing challenges - largely combat challenges - and overcoming them. The reason and backing for this are the experience system, even in "modified" form, and the "levelling" system. Those are pretty fundamental to D&D. And, regardless of the spin you put on them, they expect players to "do something" with their characters (the "something" being defined by what xp are given for) and be rewarded by having their characters be more powerful. This has been the basic structure of the game since "Men and Magic"; it's not some new-fangled slant developed recently.

Now, as the '70s turned to the '80s many folk explored the boundaries of what "roleplaying" could be used for, and they came up with other, interesting things that RPGs could do. A popular one was world-dream exploration (fully immersive or otherwise); you seem to hanker for this mode of 'roleplaying'.

Immersive "world simulation/exploration" is a very fine roleplaying mode. My favourite world and system of all - Hârn and HârnMaster - are primarily (if imperfectly) aimed at this activity. But it's not what D&D is for and it never was. D&D just gets conflicted and confusing when trying to do this - which is why I abandoned D&D entirely for most of the '80s and '90s. I was looking for a game mode that it didn't support, so I got frustrated with it and, as a result, distainful and dismissive of it. Which was a shame, because it represented a whole other 'mode' of roleplaying that I also (eventually) came to hanker for without really knowing it.

So, what I have discovered is that challenge-busting play and sim-immersive play are different things, like cycling in the countryside and watching a play. I enjoy both activities, but trying to do them both at the same time, or with the same equipment, is asking for trouble. So I do them separately - and it works fine. I commend the method to anyone with the patience to read this far ;)

Aside from expanding the skills section...

Timekeeping.
Mapping.
Movement (various environs)
Weather
The basics of these are already in 4E; the rest are mainly world-specific, and only become important if they are relevant to a challenge, in any case.

Equipment section (explaining how they're used in adventuring).
Equipment and goods (everyday items encountered in the DnD world).
Food (sources, duration, mechanics for starvation, etc)
Light (sources, duration, etc)
All of these are covered as far as necessary to feed the challenge mechanics. Note that by "challenge" I don't mean only combat (although doing 100% combat is a pitfall that's easy to fall into). I mean any opportunity for the players (not the characters) to apply their skill, smarts and/or chutzpah to overcome obstacles. This includes skill challenges and whatever else the DM can come up with. It's an area that needs more work in 4E, but, to be fair, at least some of the design team acknowledge this.

Social, political, economic factors (nobility/feudalism, etc, and how it plays in the DnD world)
Ranks of nobility
Guilds
All world specific and not really required in a rule book.

Magic research
It's a challenge, if it is relevant to play - just as is anything else that is relevant to play. Having it as a regular element of character development is unhelpful and potentially unbalancing in a game with any 'competition' tension (such as D&D - any version).

To me, THAT stuff is what makes DnD better than playing a video game. DnD used to be vastly superior to any fantasy video game. But 4E has LESS roleplaying in it than Elder Scrolls: Oblivion. And that's just sad.
You are welcome to your opinion, but I can't really comment since "roleplaying" is such a poorly defined and diverse term that I have no clear idea what you mean. I think D&D 4E does generate "roleplaying" (for some value of 'roleplaying'), but its main focus is not on addressing story issues nor on creating and experiencing another world. There are other (good) games that do focus on those two areas, but D&D has never been really good at either.
 

Well, if the DM balances all encounters to provide a constant level of challenge, then that +1 sword mentioned above is just as much of an empty waste. You will meet just as hard a challenge with or without the sword, since the DM would be adjusting for it's presence or absence...

I was assuming using the encounter budget based on the level and number of PCs in the party, as the books tell you to do.

In fact, IF you use that assumption, paying for ANY kind of improvement would be a waste, since that improvement would be neutralized by an adjustment to keep the balance.

Yep. It's not just improvements, it can include the "choices" that players make during a game that effects the "balance" of the encounter. (The scare quotes are there because a choice that has no effect on the game isn't really a choice, and I don't think that has anything to do with game balance - which I think is about allowing players to make decisions between two or more options, none of which appears better than the other - but one is optimal).
 

I think that using gold for crafting items is not necessarily better than using gold for rituals.

Gold is a renewable resource. PCs acquire it in nearly half of encounters on average.

The crafted +1 sword is going to become obsolete in about 5 levels anyway (especially with the new concept of common, uncommon, and rare items). Just like the ritual will, for the most part, become obsolete by the next game day.

At level 10 when the PCs are acquiring 2000 GP in a treasure parcel, the 50 GP spent at level 2 for a ritual will become peanuts, just like the 360 GP spent at level 4 for the now obsolete +1 sword will become peanuts.


To me, rituals are like any other consumable. At around level 5, you start occasionally using cheap low level consumables and rituals to augment the effectiveness of the group. You don't do so with expensive closer to party level consumables and rituals except in unusual circumstances.


I do think that "party related expenses" such as some rituals can sometimes be viewed as "taking my money and spending it on something that I don't necessarily need", but that appears to be a minority viewpoint. Our group tends to split the monetary treasure into x+1 where x is the number of party members. So with 4 PCs currently, 1/5th goes into a general party fund for rituals, bribes, miscellaneous expenses, crafting healing or resistance potions (regardless of who they are distributed to), etc. There is almost never a discussion on how to spend the party fund since any use of it is basically what it is there for. The party fund is even used to make loans to PCs. I could see where worrying about spending gold on a ritual is more of an issue for a group that doesn't have a party fund.
 

Aside from expanding the skills section...

Equipment and goods (everyday items encountered in the DnD world)...
Social, political, economic factors (nobility/feudalism, etc, and how it plays in the DnD world)...
Ranks of nobility...
Guilds...
Which D&D world?!?

The things you're asking for are very campaign specific. I'm running a 4e Dark Sun game right now and the DS book has all these things, but the answers to them would be totally inappropriate if we were in Eberron instead. Most campaigns don't need desert survival rules and equipment. To say nothing of things like nobility and economics, which are going to vary wildly between worlds.

The core rules are supposed to be portable to whatever campaign you are playing. Tying a bunch of campaign specific mechanics into them would defeat the whole purpose.
 

Sorry, I don't mean to be snarky, but this stuff actually DOES appear in the 4e core 3 books.
Aside from expanding the skills section...

Timekeeping.
Mapping.
Movement (various environs)
All found in PHB1 Chapter 8. Also appears in DMG1 in various places in Chapter 9, some in Chapter 2 or 3, etc.
Chapter 9 again.

Equipment section (explaining how they're used in adventuring).
I'm not familiar with any edition of D&D that had a section explaining how items are used. There are rules for the mechanics of a few specific 4e items such as light sources, ropes and climbing gear, thief's tools, camo clothing, vehicles, etc. This is as much as was ever in the AD&D books
Equipment and goods (everyday items encountered in the DnD world).
Again, DMG1 p111 has a list of goods and services beyond whatever actual equipment there is. I never really understood how a laundry list of bowls, cups, and spoons, all of which any PC can pay for out of pocket change, fosters roleplay...
Food (sources, duration, mechanics for starvation, etc)
DMG1 Chapter 9 has rules for starvation and thirst. Nature and Dungeoneering skills (and some Martial Practices) cover finding food in various environments.
Light (sources, duration, etc)
PHB1 p262, there are also a couple places this is touched on in other books.

Social, political, economic factors (nobility/feudalism, etc, and how it plays in the DnD world)
Ranks of nobility
Guilds
Gets 3 whole chapters in DMG1. Again check DMG1 p111 for some tables. There are whole extensive sections covering all of these topics to the tune of 1000's of words.

Magic research
Not really covered as such in detail, but rituals and alchemy amongst other things are pretty obvious candidates for simply fluffing as research (IE you spend gold to acquire a ritual, that could be copying from some book or it could be research). I'd also like to note that the AD&D rules for this are notoriously lacking as they really boil down to "the DM decides" since there isn't any real objective standard for how hard a given research project is (not that there could be, but after the whole formula for spell research the DM still just picks the one variable, spell level).

Basically... all that stuff that filled TWO 1E hardbacks (wilderness and dungeoneering guides) and parts of the PHB and DMG.

To me, THAT stuff is what makes DnD better than playing a video game. DnD used to be vastly superior to any fantasy video game. But 4E has LESS roleplaying in it than Elder Scrolls: Oblivion. And that's just sad.

No, it isn't sad, it is in 4e. In fact 4e is replete with this stuff. There is a rather different style to the way it is presented than it was in AD&D, but again and again when you go through any of the 4e DM source books you find pages and pages of discussion of NPCs, story arcs, things you can find in various locations, lore, plot hooks, etc.

Lots of people seem to like making this claim. I get that they're after a chart they can roll randomly on for the weather. That wasn't RP. It had little or nothing to do with RP. It might be a useful resource for your style of play, but the thing to recognize is that not everyone found that stuff particularly useful. While I enjoyed the 1e DMG I also basically never opened it except once in a blue moon. The 4e DMGs? Use them all the time.
 

You are welcome to your opinion, but I can't really comment since "roleplaying" is such a poorly defined and diverse term that I have no clear idea what you mean. I think D&D 4E does generate "roleplaying" (for some value of 'roleplaying'), but its main focus is not on addressing story issues nor on creating and experiencing another world. There are other (good) games that do focus on those two areas, but D&D has never been really good at either.

It has always done a fine job for me.

If I want that experience with 4E, I'm gonna need some older books. Which is fine for me.

I just wonder if the next generation is going to experience it that way, or just see DnD as a tabletop strategy game...
 

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