eTools Patch and Source Code

[Fast Learner]

Re: Bah

Its for the best. Fluid is a crappy bunch of programmers who siphoned away a ton of money and produced jack as a product.

I am a programmer - and I can spot it a mile away - happens all the time.

Yup, programmers always think that. Spend a decade in application design and project management and you'd be surprised what you learn about failed software projects.

Changing requirements and unclear requirements are the primary reason software projects fail, by far. Lousy programming has very little effect because programmers are so easily replaced when they're doing a poor job. Contrary to what most programmers think.

 

[kristov]

Ok

Well I havent done design work for decades - only a few years and im quite good at it.

I know all about changing specs and dealing with the business and end users in a project.

I generally handle small and medium sized business projects and usually handle both the lead programming slot as well as the analyst - most analysts are idiots as well and dont know what they are promising or explaining.

You have to know the job and what the goals are in and out - my guess is the Fluid people also couldn't figure out what D20 Dungeons and Dragons was about and how to work the mechancics of it for it to have come out to be such a sloppy piece of (you fill in this blank).

Like all jobs - you have skilled people and you have idiots who have jobs.


-Kristov

 

[Fast Learner]

Then perhaps we're in synch and you're just unfamiliar with the history of the product. (Just for reference I have 25 years in programming, the last 10 of which included a great deal of architecture, design, and project management, including many stints as lead programmer, so it sounds like our experience is similar but for the lengths of time.)

You do know that the initial requirements were focused on a 3d mapper, animated monsters with sound, and online roleplaying, right? And that licensing changes completely messed that up, that requirements sat up in the air for many months (nearly a year), that when new requirements finally came down they were of the "what can we salvage out of this with the budget nearly gone" variety? (With the addition of a new very tight time constraint.)

And you blame the resulting product on lousy programming?

Surely your experience indicates otherwise.

 

[KnowTheToe]

Then perhaps we're in synch and you're just unfamiliar with the history of the product. (Just for reference I have 25 years in programming, the last 10 of which included a great deal of architecture, design, and project management, including many stints as lead programmer, so it sounds like our experience is similar but for the lengths of time.)

You do know that the initial requirements were focused on a 3d mapper, animated monsters with sound, and online roleplaying, right? And that licensing changes completely messed that up, that requirements sat up in the air for many months (nearly a year), that when new requirements finally came down they were of the "what can we salvage out of this with the budget nearly gone" variety? (With the addition of a new very tight time constraint.)

And you blame the resulting product on lousy programming?

Surely your experience indicates otherwise.

I would agree. I to am a programmer, but i don't have your experience. Once, when I was a kid I programmed simple math algorythyms and even made small pictures on my Apple.

Anyway, from following the software I believe it was a lack of a disdinct vision of the product. The loss of the mapper, refocusing of product, not setting up measurable expectations. This whole project was almost a secret. They put little to nothing out on their websites. That is unheard of nowadays. You can read about a video game two years before it comes out.

 

[Vpenman]

Fast Learner,

If you look at what actually happened, I believe you will find that Hasbro announced it was going to sell off its electronic gaming rights in Dec. of 2000 and then announced it had sold those rights in Jan. of 2001 (www.corporate-ir.net/ireye/ir_site.zhtml?ticker=HAS&script=461&layout=-6&item_id=148123).

The press release makes it clear this included the rights to Wizards of the Coast intellectual property. It is not credible to believe the people working on Master Tools were unaware of this sale. However, at least until June, 2001, updates continued to be released that reported work being done on the mapping utility, monster scans, etc. It was not until sometime in July that somebody said "Wait a minute".

Clearly WotC retained the rights to do a 3rd Edition D&D utility or else E-Tools would not have been released. I suspect, but do not know, that when this was allowed in the Infogrames deal, the lawyers involved reviewed the pertinent contract and specifications for Master Tools and gave their okay to them. I admit this is speculation on my part, but I believe this is much more likely than Infogrames saying, "Yeah, go ahead, you can do a utility" without bothering to find out what would be in that utility.

I was at Gamma in March, 2001, when TSR told the distribubtors Master Tools would be released at GenCon. This was two months after the Infogrames sale. A press release was issued promising an August ship of Master tools, and, as I said, the project updates continued to sing that product's praises into June.

In August, I was at GenCon 2001 and saw a demonstration of the character generation utility. That character generator was no where near being ready to be shipped at that time.

Personally, I believe something happened in the June - July, 2001, time frame that revealed that project was neither as far along as had been reported and was not the project Hasbro/Wotc thought was being developed.

I admit this is speculation on my part, but I believe it is unusually accurate speculation.

BTW: I have been developing software projects for over 20 years myself and, in addition to a wide variety of games on a number of platforms, these include the Dungeon Master's Assistant program (published by SSI), the original Core Rules CD program (published by TSR), and the Core Rules 2.0 and its Expansion programs (published by WotC).

Victor

 

[kristov]

Project Changes..

I am aware of the many changes in scope and direction that Master Tools undertook before finally being released as the unsuable E-Tools.

However most people point the finger at Hasbro and WoTC - when the more than likely (and my belief) is that the work being done the entire time by Fluid was extremely sub-par and probably way off of the time table they expected and im sure agreed to.

This was probably caused by them making promises and setting time lines they were completely unable to keep - and had to ask for more and more money.

Hasbro/WoTC finally had to quit burning money on what was obviously a bad choice of developers and bail out of the bigger goals and finally just get them to give them something... anything... to put out.

FYI - I personally hate Hasbro - they are the reason WoTC is crumbling and has been sucking for so long - they will probably lead them back into a TSR like state of coma where thier products are all shelved for the purpose of protecting "intellectual license" for products they will never even touch again.

I realize hate is a rather emotional word - but from a gamers point of view - thats how i feel. From a real world point of view - where money talks - they are doing what they feel they gotta do for the bottom dollar.

So im not trying to defend them - BUT - i definately think the problem was in the choice of developers they chose who didnt deliver a product they had agreed on originally within the time frame and within budget.

-Kristov

 

[Fast Learner]

Re: Project Changes..

This was probably caused by them making promises and setting time lines they were completely unable to keep - and had to ask for more and more money.

Hasbro/WoTC finally had to quit burning money on what was obviously a bad choice of developers and bail out of the bigger goals and finally just get them to give them something... anything... to put out.

Hmm. Do you think this project wasn't contracted on a fixed bid? If WOTC actually had a project concept in mind then there's no reason the project wasn't fixed. What makes you think they asked for more money?

Vpenman: I agree that something funky happened in that time frame. I have no reason to believe, though, that Wizards wasn't telling Fluid to go ahead with development throughout the Infogrammes deal, since the updates certainly indicated that they were still doing the Arcanum/mapping/monster stuff throughout that period.

The focus clearly was on the pretty stuff throughout that time period. That's no surprise, especially since that's the kind of programming Fluid does. Was that potentially bad project design and management? Absolutely.

It had nothing to do with bad programming, though.

 

[herald]

FYI - I personally hate Hasbro - they are the reason WoTC is crumbling and has been sucking for so long - they will probably lead them back into a TSR like state of coma where thier products are all shelved for the purpose of protecting "intellectual license" for products they will never even touch again.

If Hasbro has been "making them suck" for so long, I hope they keep on making them suck. I personally have enjoyed almost every single product released under 3e.

Just call me a sucker!

 

[Vpenman]

Re: Re: Project Changes..

.... Was that potentially bad project design and management? Absolutely.

It had nothing to do with bad programming, though.

I agree with your assessment. Since I never got my hands on Master Tools, I have no basis for evaluating what was actually programmed.

Victor

 

[Chaz]

Re: Re: Re: Project Changes..

Since I never got my hands on Master Tools.....
Victor

And thats a shame IMO. Ive said it before, and I say it again here, I wish you guys had been able to make the 3rd Ed program for WotC. This has nothing to do with what I think of fluid... The Core Rules & Core Rules 2 (& CR2ex) were some of the best programs I ever bought. I realy liked them. Still do. Who knows I may go back to 2nd Ed someday soon........

Anyway just wanted to add my 2 cents worth.