eTools Patch and Source Code

Hollywood said:



Yup... I remember surfing the internet, Gopher, Talk, et al. way back on a 2400 baud modem running on my MicroChannel IBM 286. Or in dorm room's with 8086s and green and amber screens. :)



gopher....
2400 baud........
8086's....
*fades to memories*

Franklin computers....
Bard's Tales..
 

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No, there may be little reason, other than compliance to sql standards. But MS complaince to standards is another issue. I mention the change simply on the basis that most of the people I have met who do free development for software despise MS and would remove MS portions as their first order of business.
 

Understood, but since the code is entirely written using MS DLLs, it would make more sense to scrap the whole thing and start from scratch if using MS stuff isn't going to work.

PS: I stared with a 160 baud modem. When I got my 300 baud modem (they were new), I was thrilled. When I finally got a 2400 baud modem (years later, when they first came out), I was incredibly thrilled.

Today I use a 512k high-speed connection in my home. My how things have changed.
 

Vpenman said:
The press release makes it clear this included the rights to Wizards of the Coast intellectual property. It is not credible to believe the people working on Master Tools were unaware of this sale. However, at least until June, 2001, updates continued to be released that reported work being done on the mapping utility, monster scans, etc. It was not until sometime in July that somebody said "Wait a minute".

Victor [/B]

I believe the missing point was that for whatever reason this sale had been used by WotC as an excuse for cutting certain things and changing the goal of the project. But like much that the consumer hears, its all been filtered thru marketting, PR and spinsters. I was there at the beginning and there was never any question of doing anything related to an interactive game or online play (that which infogrames purchased the rights to), there was wishlist stuff for the future but for that sort of thing infogrames could be contacted and licenses settled.

The heart of the problems with this project and many others at wotc was that Pokemon money dried up, thats why Hasbro sold those rights to begin with, and this obviously trickled down to a ton of other areas. Money has to be cut and I'm sure it was cut in many things regardless wether they were deemed potentially successful. This is buisness, albeit kneejerk buisness, but buisness none the less. Master Tools as it was then was completely cancelled shortly after Gencon of last year. Ryan Dancy resurrected it from the grave in January of this year with a vastly reduced budget and a reduced goals (mapper cut, etc...).



In reply to your comment on disagreeing with using XML, since that was my choice and mostly my coding to get that to run, why do you think that wasn't a good choice? The XSLT transform offers tremendous power to the users to customize their output, as evidenced by the fact that the D&D character sheet and the statblock can both be made by the same XML output.


And finally
If the Core Rules Database had been open, someone would have done something bad with it. I am thinking of creating "items" that really didn't work with the program or that overwrote existing, legitimate items.

The other programmer on the etools project would bring those sort of topics up all the time. To me it seems to be a control issue only, that is a personal preference on controlling data or others with that data.
These projects are "tools" after all and like any other tool improper use could be damaging. Do all screwdrivers have a warning not to stab yourself in the eye, or perhaps an eye-guard to prevent that? If they did, you would annoy more responsible people with it than lives saved, and this goes for software too. Any "open" product can reap a lot of benefit by opening its data at any level. From users that want something the developers hadn't accounted for, and want it enough to do it themselves. You see this in a wide range for eTools, new stylesheets, creatures and even UI art for inside eTools.

The opposing view which you are supporting is only one of control, if the database is hidden then you and only you can update it, and potentially charge for it. I personally consider that weakness, I prefer code to stand on its merits not a hidden value that I am the only one who knows the formats.
 

EricLeaf said:

Stuff.....
.

I like ET. The ONLY problem ive had is the lack of communication from you guys. It seemed everything was great when you first opened the fluid boards. But then it all went to hell. What happend Eric? Thats the only thing I want to know. You guys gave me great hope for the support of ET. I didnt care about what was/wasnt in it. Didnt care about bugs. Becuase you guys at fluid talked the talk of support for the program. And it seemed you would back it up. But then the silence. Can you tell me what went wrong? Thats all I want to know. What went wrong?
 

EricLeaf said:

The heart of the problems with this project and many others at wotc was that Pokemon money dried up, thats why Hasbro sold those rights to begin with, and this obviously trickled down to a ton of other areas. Money has to be cut and I'm sure it was cut in many things regardless wether they were deemed potentially successful. This is buisness, albeit kneejerk buisness, but buisness none the less. Master Tools as it was then was completely cancelled shortly after Gencon of last year. Ryan Dancy resurrected it from the grave in January of this year with a vastly reduced budget and a reduced goals (mapper cut, etc...).

The Pokemon money drying up was obviously a problem for Hasbro/WotC. However, the fact Hasbro Interactive was losing money was an additional point. Unfortunately for Hasbro, its software business was not profitable. It appears Master Tools/E-Tools is not an exception to this. If Hasbro/Wotc had cancelled that project at the time of the Infogrames sale, it would be money ahead now.

Perhaps enough money ahead so that some of the creative people at WotC who got the axe would not had their jobs eliminated.

As I recall, MasterTools was originally slated for a Q4, 2000, ship (I still have the Jim Bishop post on that). Had that been done, the Infogrames sale would be a moot point -- plus all the additional money not spent/sales generated since that time would have made WotC and D&D look much more profitable. Which means that much less likely to fall under the axe.

Mind you I do not know why the product did not ship on schedule. But I do know that you cannot have a product that continually misses ship dates/goes over budget and not expect something bad to happen.

I do find the statement that Ryan Dancy resurrected the product in January of this year to be interesting. As I recall (apparently incorrectly), Ryan Dancy's association with WotC and this product ended in December of last year. Please, any clarification on this will be most welcome.


[/B][/QUOTE]
In reply to your comment on disagreeing with using XML, since that was my choice and mostly my coding to get that to run, why do you think that wasn't a good choice? The XSLT transform offers tremendous power to the users to customize their output, as evidenced by the fact that the D&D character sheet and the statblock can both be made by the same XML output. [/B][/QUOTE]

One obvious problem is that many people who purchased the product could not get a printout with the operating systems indicated on the packaging. This has been confusing to many people. All it takes is a look at the postings on this and other message boards to make that clear.

Including the browser upgrade on the CD would have been a partial solution. As Microsoft would not have charged for that use of its software, I can see no good reason why this was not done. The problem was well known to both Fluid and WotC. Fluid because it noted it in the Help File and WotC because it appeared in the GenCon 2001 Sunday product demo I attended. That demo was run by Ryan Dancy and Anthony Valterra.

However, requiring a user to do a download to get a product to work is not a good solution. While people on this board may commonly do downloads, they are at best inconveniences to many.

The other problem is that there is no way -- that I know of -- to get different systems to get XML printouts that look the same. If I am wrong in this, please let me know.

The choice to use XML as the print option, and to not support the standard Windows printers, illustrates one of the fundamental design flaws in the product. That is, this product is aimed at power users -- people who have more computer expertise than is common among most people who own computers and play D&D. These are the people who should have been its target market.

A product that was better designed to fit it potential customers (D&D players with Windows computer systems and average computer expertise) could reasonably be expected to sell more units than one that expected Access competence, high speed internet access, etc.

[/B][/QUOTE]
And finally


The other programmer on the etools project would bring those sort of topics up all the time. To me it seems to be a control issue only, that is a personal preference on controlling data or others with that data.
These projects are "tools" after all and like any other tool improper use could be damaging. Do all screwdrivers have a warning not to stab yourself in the eye, or perhaps an eye-guard to prevent that? If they did, you would annoy more responsible people with it than lives saved, and this goes for software too. Any "open" product can reap a lot of benefit by opening its data at any level. From users that want something the developers hadn't accounted for, and want it enough to do it themselves. You see this in a wide range for eTools, new stylesheets, creatures and even UI art for inside eTools.

The opposing view which you are supporting is only one of control, if the database is hidden then you and only you can update it, and potentially charge for it. I personally consider that weakness, I prefer code to stand on its merits not a hidden value that I am the only one who knows the formats. [/B][/QUOTE]

This pretty much reinforces the point that the product is aimed at power users and not the typically computer owning D&D player. Most of whom would be as likely to poke themselves in the eye with a screwdriver as they would be able to create and share custom data using an Access database.

It is not a control issue. It is simply providing a product that most of your customers can use as is.

Victor
 

Victor,

One obvious problem is that many people who purchased the product could not get a printout with the operating systems indicated on the packaging.

This is not a fault of the choice of technologies.

expected Access competence

Again, this was not a fault of the choice of technologies.

I'm not disagreeing that the default eTools package should have worked out of the box without downloads, nor that there shouldn't have been a default option to use the standard print Windows features.

However, you keep blaming the technology choices rather than the implementation of the eTools software and/or the implementation of those technologies. The technology is not at fault at all.
 

Hollywood said:
...
This is not a fault of the choice of technologies.
...
Again, this was not a fault of the choice of technologies.

Sure it is. If you choose a technology that many, if not most, of the perspective customers cannot use, or at least cannot use correctly, you have chosen the wrong technology.

[/B][/QUOTE]
However, you keep blaming the technology choices rather than the implementation of the eTools software and/or the implementation of those technologies. The technology is not at fault at all. [/B][/QUOTE]

Certainly the software could have been implemented to lessen the problems created by these choices.

Including an install program that checked your system for a browser that supported XML and then, if it did not find one, offerig to install the upgrade should have been done. Similarly, the system should have been checked for the correct ODBC and offered to install that, if needed.

Also, there should have been a front end and back end to the Access database that supported the creation, exporting, and importing of custom items.

However, even the above had been done, you would still be faced with the fact that most people are not familiar with using XML (compared with their standard Windows print drivers) and that you cannot rely on XML to provide printout that look the same on different systems.

Regarding Access, you still face the problem of people creating data outside of the program that can be put into the program and cause it to malfunction.

The technology itself is not at fault. But the decision to use a technology that is inappropriate for the target market (or what should have been the target market) is at fault.

Victor
 

Vpenman said:
Sure it is. If you choose a technology that many, if not most, of the perspective customers cannot use, or at least cannot use correctly, you have chosen the wrong technology.

ONLY, and I repeat ONLY, if that technology has been implemented incorrectly. If it has been implemented correctly, then the user should never know that technology is at work. Period.

Including an install program that checked your system for a browser that supported XML and then, if it did not find one, offerig to install the upgrade should have been done. Similarly, the system should have been checked for the correct ODBC and offered to install that, if needed.

And these are once again Implementation Details. Its not the fault of the Access product that the ODBC drivers were not present. Thats the fault of the developers, QA and the publisher for not making sure that their software worked on all listed platforms without a hitch.

Also, there should have been a front end and back end to the Access database that supported the creation, exporting, and importing of custom items.

Again, these are Implementation Details. This isn't the fault of Access, its the fault of the developers.

However, even the above had been done, you would still be faced with the fact that most people are not familiar with using XML (compared with their standard Windows print drivers) and that you cannot rely on XML to provide printout that look the same on different systems.

Again, these are Implementation Details. When printing out an HTML page via Internet Explorer, you use the standard Windows print API [not drivers]. All the XML/XSLT is doing in this case is creating an HTML text file that can be printed. Its not terribly difficult technology, and since its a standard technology it WILL look the same on every system especially when using the exact same transform. Now, the implementation of it may have been exceedingly bad that it causes the majority of end-users that have limited computer savy problems; and therefore their implementation of it is a problem of their software. As I said, it probably would have behooved eTools to have supplied a standard character sheet printout that used directly the Windows print API and then also supplied the XML based output options for more advanced users.

Regarding Access, you still face the problem of people creating data outside of the program that can be put into the program and cause it to malfunction.

So? You seem to find this is a problem. I don't. Then again, I enjoy such games and software for games such as Army Builder, Quake, Unreal Tournament [I worked for awhile on Tactical Ops which was released retail along with my own Minions of Destruction mod], AoE/AoE2, Warcraft3, NWN, etc. All software that allows the end-user to add new and exciting things to the software.

The technology itself is not at fault. But the decision to use a technology that is inappropriate for the target market (or what should have been the target market) is at fault.

Thats of course your opinion.
 

Hollywood said:

Thats of course your opinion.

Yes and I have probably stated it enough by now.

I should have acknowledged your suggestion that providing XML in addition to the standard Windows print methods would have been a completely valid decision (with your implementation qualifiers).

Victor
 

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