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<blockquote data-quote="apoptosis" data-source="post: 4273850" data-attributes="member: 3226">I think some disconnect, at least for me, is based on the huge number of fantasy RPGs I have played over the last 30 years. D&amp;D has specific characteristics and enough of these are what constitutes a D&amp;D play experience.Many of the first fantasy RPGs were pretty much D&amp;D clones so there was not a huge difference in play. Later on different games had much more discrimination in their feel of play and some of the present games like TSOY and Burning Wheel which have very different feel than classic D&amp;D.So having played so many fantasy RPGs, a game that is &quot;D&amp;D&quot; has certain built-in expectations and these separate &quot;D&amp;D&quot; from other fantasy games. Now what those criteria are and the line that is drawn is both completely arbitrary and frankly not very consistent even in my own mind.People who are looking for certain D&amp;Dism and want to play D&amp;D vs another fantasy RPG, might not find them in 4E and shouldnt be a priori expecting 4E to fulfull these and really should know that 4E is very different than previous editions.Conversely, many of the types of games that traditional D&amp;D did well (killing things and taking their stuff and dungeoncrawls) seem like they can be done really well in 4E (and can be done well in other fantasy RPGs) but that they will be done&nbsp; without certain elements that D&amp;D has traditionally used. So it becomes a question of are you wanting to play 4E to run a similar type of game (eg dungeoncrawl) or are you wanting to run a similar type of game but additionally with&nbsp; elements that are pretty unique to traditional D&amp;D.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="apoptosis, post: 4273850, member: 3226"] I think some disconnect, at least for me, is based on the huge number of fantasy RPGs I have played over the last 30 years. D&D has specific characteristics and enough of these are what constitutes a D&D play experience. Many of the first fantasy RPGs were pretty much D&D clones so there was not a huge difference in play. Later on different games had much more discrimination in their feel of play and some of the present games like TSOY and Burning Wheel which have very different feel than classic D&D. So having played so many fantasy RPGs, a game that is "D&D" has certain built-in expectations and these separate "D&D" from other fantasy games. Now what those criteria are and the line that is drawn is both completely arbitrary and frankly not very consistent even in my own mind. People who are looking for certain D&Dism and want to play D&D vs another fantasy RPG, might not find them in 4E and shouldnt be a priori expecting 4E to fulfull these and really should know that 4E is very different than previous editions. Conversely, many of the types of games that traditional D&D did well (killing things and taking their stuff and dungeoncrawls) seem like they can be done really well in 4E (and can be done well in other fantasy RPGs) but that they will be done without certain elements that D&D has traditionally used. So it becomes a question of are you wanting to play 4E to run a similar type of game (eg dungeoncrawl) or are you wanting to run a similar type of game but additionally with elements that are pretty unique to traditional D&D. [/QUOTE]

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