OD&D Evidence Chainmail Had Material from Dave Arneson

Status
Not open for further replies.

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
The testimony of the people directly involved in a dispute is typically given less weight than other evidence; consider a typical criminal case, for example.
No. Absolutely not. If you have the people directly involved making clear statements about what they did, this is strong evidence. We convict people on weaker statements regularly. Add to this an adversarial legal fight where it is strongly in one side's interest to claim your premise and they explicitly do not, that's mountainous evidence. You must not only have rock solid evidence against, but must also impeach the witness, niether of which you have. You have some conjecture with cherry picked evidence. This is apparent in how you demand a higher standard of evidence that cuts against you while hand waving away questions of yours.

Again, I have no dog in this fight but I can appreciate a well argued position. Yours is very poorly supported by the evidence you've provided, and you cannot address the strongest evidence against without a further assumption that such evidence isn't strong. You can't hand wave it away and be tajen seriously, you have to actually show it to be incorrect. Instead, you've started from, "Let's assume Dave and Gary lied consistently for years, even in legal proceedings. What can we gather if that's so." You beg the question, sir.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

That’s not what happened.
Weird isn’t it? When someone agrees with you, you ask them for an introduction to post here.
When they don’t, they aren’t worth your time.
Good to know that about you.

something something never meet your heroes.
That’s b.s. Rob.
Just because someone wrote a nice review of your book doesn’t mean you put up with this.

Your words not mine. Reflect in what they mean rather than digging a deeper hole for yourself.
 

Really? Dude. Lets just look at some simple facts.

Hes literally just not sure of what the truth is and would like to know it. Pursuing this he wants to examine things from both ends. Go through a process so to speak.

Why are you jumping on his back?

You assume bias absurdly quick.

People can take their time to arrive at different conclusions than your own. I see no reason to believe its just because someone gave him a nice review. Even if they did it doesnt suddenly make him incapable of coming up with his own conclusions or incapable of having his own reasons for interest.
 


Perhaps instead of sending Gygax a copy of Patt's article, Arneson simply told Gygax that Patt's article appeared in vol. 2 no. 7 of the Courier.
No need to surmise how GG might have obtained the article or information. A first hand account in this thread has already stated that GG subscribed to the Courier. Hence it is reasonable to not be surprised that he might have read it in a timely manner.
 

I know exactly what they mean. I don’t think you’d be as forgiving of someone if you didn’t have a pre-existing relationship.

I am content with my position; after all, I’m not the one making waves in the hobby.
You see. You judge me without knowing me. You assume " I don’t think you’d be as forgiving of someone if you didn’t have a pre-existing relationship." You have certainly revealed a lesser character, but it isn't me...
 



]


Yawn

Prove it. Read the first page. Analyze his “article”. Concentrate on the textual “analysis”.
Put up or shut up. Instead of criticizing me, why not look at what you’re defending.

And if you have actual, salient points I will respond to those.
No need to go full sociopath, LowKey, this is just an internet board... Geez.
 

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
Really? Dude. Lets just look at some simple facts.

Hes literally just not sure of what the truth is and would like to know it. Pursuing this he wants to examine things from both ends. Go through a process so to speak.

Why are you jumping on his back?

You assume bias absurdly quick.
Not sure who you're responding to, and assuming you're talking about the OP just be curious, that's not exactly what's happening.

The OP has advanced that there may be some influence to Chainmail from Dave Arneson's Blackmoor game. This is an interesting idea, and I'd enjoy reading something that explores it. But that's not what's happened. Instead, the OP takes the premise as a given and looks for evidence to support it, which he presented. In this evidence, he lays out the case that Gary may have been aware of material from Blackmoor and included it in Chainmal. This requires a very tight timeline of events that's only feasible if the actual publication of Chainmail is later than generally thought. How the material is included under this tight timeline is elided (apparently Gary is assumed to be a gifted plagiarist?)

The problem is that both Dave and Gary made repeated statements over many years that contradicts this premise. They did so consistently and even during a legal fight over the Arneson's share of the credit for D&D (where claiming that Gary previously stole material would be very helpful to Dave's case). This evidence to the contrary is dismissed in preference of the above conjecture. So, for the conjecture to be true, Dave would have to have not recognized his own work in Chainmail and decided to instead say how his own work was very helpful to him in developing Blackmoor AND Gary would have to be a liar. For the premise to be true, you need to at least assume Dave was dumb and Gary a liar. Or something even more fanciful, like a conspiracy for no apparent reason. This is a huge hurdle for the central premise of the OP to clear, and he's come no where near doing so. Instead, he assumes, without cause or rational, that there was early sharing and then builds his case from there. That's literally begging the question.

When challenged on this, the OP tried to claim that witness statements are actually weak evidence and shouldn't be credited over other evidence. But, he hasn't presented any evidence that the statements are untrue, just a conjecture that they may be so if you squint and and blur some (only some, he ignores what doesn't help) evidence to create his timeline. This is bunkum. It's obviously bad work in pursuit of a theory rather than scholarship to discover more truth.
 

Status
Not open for further replies.
Remove ads

Top