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Evil Campaign

Vegepygmy

First Post
interwyrm said:
I disagree. There are plenty examples of organized cooperative evil in both literature and real life. Real life mafia is 'evil', and even the Joker has got his band of hooligans.

That's because they are not all really evil. The may be bad guys but not evil.
If your definition of evil is so narrow that it excludes even a single person who knowingly joins an organization that is entirely devoted to exploiting, stealing from, and murdering innocent people...I submit to you that your definition is a little too narrow.
 

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StreamOfTheSky

Adventurer
That text of the D&D session, real or not (header left me confused) was awesome! Had me laughing a lot. Is there a part 3? I want to know if the Domination spell is ever used to hilarious effect.

EDIT: Lots of funny parts, but this exchange was the funniest, to me.

GM: He weathers your blows like rain against a statue.
Ingvar: Aww, Stoneskin? That's such BS...
GM: YOU have Stoneskin. You ALL have Stoneskin!
Ingvar: They'd better fix that in the next version, because it's a bull**** spell. Seriously...
 
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Khairn

First Post
In the past I've run a couple of successful "evil" games and agree that having the right players (not looking to PvP the other PC's) and having the right motivation is key. My best "evil" game was set in FR with the players being Zhent agents, charged with starting a war between Sembia and Archendale.

I found that Darkwalker: The Evil Within by Steve Creech and Kevin Ruesch is an outstanding resource for GM's looking to run an evil game.
 

Celebrim

Legend
If your definition of evil is so narrow that it excludes even a single person who knowingly joins an organization that is entirely devoted to exploiting, stealing from, and murdering innocent people...I submit to you that your definition is a little too narrow.

I submit that first groups of people who exploit, steal, and murder seldom confine their exploitation to outsiders, but generally compete with each other at least as harshly as they exploit outsiders. Such organizations of cutthroats are generally pretty cutthroat. Elaborate betrayals, assassination attempts, vengence of all slights, and outright murder of associates are pretty much the norm. And I submit that secondly, that you don't have to be evil to do very bad things. The vast majority of evil works are done by people who are in DM terms neutral, and who are not actively promoting evil as a goal unto itself, but who are merely trying to survive, get ahead, going along with the crowd, or avenge some percieved injustice to their persons. They act out of fear or ignorance or indifference or out of the misguided belief that those that they act against aren't really people or somehow deserve it by virtue of some evil they supposedly did. Most participants in a genocide, for example, which most of us will probably agree is among the worst of all sorts of evil, are probably this latter sort. Personally, I find this a good bit more horrifying than believing that only truly evil people do great evil, because the view I've outlined here suggests that most everyone - including those people you know and like and including perhaps even yourself - are capable of tremendously monstrous acts.
 

Most of my recent campaigns could fairly be called evil. Actually, that's not exactly true; I do away with alignment completely, but if I were to reinstate it, I'd have to fairly call all of the PCs some variety of evil, or at best "dark neutral."

I'm always amazed at how many groups seem to struggle with evil campaigns. I've never had any problem with them at all.

:shrug:
 

Insight

Adventurer
In 4E (and please don't turn this into an edition war), it would be far easier to get evil PCs to work together. With the defined roles inherent in the system design, a group of 4 evil PCs might well depend on one another for survival. A lot would depend on group composition, of course.

It might be fun if the group did NOT include a leader, forcing the evil PCs to work together even MORE closely for survival.

In any evil campaign, however, it ultimately falls upon the DM's shoulders to provide a compelling reason for the group to stay together. This really isn't a whole lot different than what happens in a standard game, BTW.
 

No. No, no, no, no no. It's not difficult for PCs to work together. It's not the GM's job to make them work together.

I really can't understand why a group of players who have a fun time together, who respect each other enough to help everyone have an enjoyable session, suddenly find themselves completely unable to operate socially because of a single word on a character sheet.

EDIT: Here's a copy of a blog post I made on this very topic a few months ago, from my blog here.
I don't actually much care for alignment. I think it's a problematic concept to begin with, poorly explained, even more poorly utilized by many gamers out there, and basically, it works best when it's simplified to merely being a team jersey. So, I tend to do away with alignment in games I run.

Whether that's a contributing factor or not I don't know for sure, but what I tend to get is a lot of ... ahem... colorful characters in my campaigns. Characters that, fairly, would have to be called evil if I were to use alignment.

One notable such character I got was Eladkot, a rather pompous sorcerer who was very interested in advancing his career. Making a pit stop in Blackwater, an anarchic pirate haven under the thumb of the dragon-god Toruk and his undead High Priests, he was turned on to a diviner who could possibly give him some juicy clues. Except, well, she was this possessed little girl who did anthropomancy, and read the future in the entrails of sacrificial victims. The rest of the group balked at that, but Eladkot's brain got to whirring.

The session ended, and Eladkot's player sent me an email that he wanted to sneak out in the night, go to the local slave market, and buy the cheapest, weediest gnome or halfling he could find, and take him to the diviner. I whipped up some quick rules for how the divinition worked, and how many clues she could read in the dying gnome's guts, and handed 'em off.

When Eladkot smugly starting trying to convince the rest of the party, at our next session, that he had some great ideas on where to go next, it didn't take them long to guess what had happened. The look on their faces was priceless.

Anyway, Eladkot later came into possession of a scroll with an incantation (3e rule pretty much like 4e rituals) that allowed him to summon Dagon into the world. The PCs were about 6 or 7th level, and topping out the campaign. Dagon was a CR 30 beast from Dragon Magazine. Needless to say, one of the other PCs surreptitiously stole that scroll from Eladkot before he could end the world in a blaze of Lovecraftian horror.

The next campaign I ran, my "Demons in the Mist" game started off with some characters who were a little shady, but basically decent... it seemed. As the campaign evolved, they became much more petty, much cruel and callous, and much darker, however. Maybe it all started when the womanizer swore service to a demon queen not knowing that she was a demon. Maybe it was when the womanizer was killed by the demon queen in a fit of pique and then reincarnated in the body of Fast Times era Phoebe Cates. Maybe it was when the grouchy old captain was reincarnated in the body of a gorilla. Maybe it was when the ditzy half-orc broad had a backstory element that her village had been raided by hobgoblins, another player decided to play a hobgoblin who had been part of the raid before defecting from the hobgoblin army. Maybe it was when they started suspecting (pretty early on) that their patron wasn't really on the up and up, and was playing fast and loose with them in an attempt to smuggle alchemical weapons into the hands of gnoll and gorilla terrorists. Maybe it was when I decided that the pantheon of gods would be made up mostly of transparently obvious iconic D&D demon lords.

Maybe a lot of the responsibility for evil characters that I get in my campaigns is actually mine!

Well, I've seen a nice rash of them even when I don't run. In our Age of Worms game, the gnome sorcerer Fulcrum killed a room full of commoner non-combatants with a fireball right in Greyhawk city, when a doppelganger was trying to set us up. We managed to convince the city watch that the doppelganger had actually killed all those people. A few of the other players, including a smugly self-righteous cleric of Heironeous insisted that we donate to the families of the deceased, so we went to the gladiator pits to see if we could earn them some money. Fulcrum ended up gambling most of it away, though.

In fact, Fulcrum ended up being so memorable that in a later campaign, another player decided to be a favored soul of Fulcrum... although she didn't actually believe in him. To her, the religion was a way to bilk folks out of donations. Her world was rocked to the core when it turned out Fulcrum was real after all. And she was the moral compass of that party; the one who most vigorously resisted Eladkot's ideas.

Why do I bring this up? Well, my current Freeport game is made up of thieves and cut throats. In fact, they've already cut a few throats and if this were a face to face game instead of a Pbp that got somewhat stalled over the holidays, we'd still be only about halfway through the first session. I actually really enjoy the misadventures of shady PCs. There's really nothing that says D&D has to be a heroic fantasy game, although certainly many people play that way and expect that experience.

The iconic literature on which D&D is based isn't necessarily filled with heroes, though. Although Conan, Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser all had a sense of honor, they were hardly paragons of virtue by anyone's calculation. Elric was the prototypical fantasy anti-hero; and I tend to get a fair number of PCs who model their behavior and misadventures after Cugel the "Clever."

I hear a lot of folks say that they can't do evil. That it inevitably breaks down into games that fall apart with players killing each other. I don't understand this, frankly. I've never seen it happen. Even when I was in junior high we didn't have that happen.

Perhaps the alignment issue is to blame. With a focus on alignment, it becomes more difficult to simply develop a character organically and have him (or her) do what would make sense in light of the established personality characteristics. However, as a guy who got interested in gaming because it allowed another venue to work creatively in a fantasy fiction type environment, that's always how I've approached character issues, and I've been blessed with players who, it seems, think the same way. The misadventures of the scoundrels, blaggards and rogues that I've seen over the past few years have been vastly entertaining for me to watch; much moreso than another heroic goody-two-shoes of the type I used to be more likely to play.
 
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weem

First Post
"...When Eladkot smugly starting trying to convince the rest of the party, at our next session, that he had some great ideas on where to go next, it didn't take them long to guess what had happened. The look on their faces was priceless..."

Haha, that's great!

I have run "evil" campaigns in the past (2e since I did last) and those went really well.

I really like the mafia analogy. I keep thinking of "Tony" calling up "Vinny" to get some help disposing of a body, or even killing someone over next to nothing. A family of bad guys, in some cases doing very bad (evil) things, but working together very well. It's a family thing, and going against the family (each other) would have more dire consequences than anything else they might do - so as much as they want for themselves, they work together well and look after each other... while committing horrible deeds.

It's probably a simple way to look at a more complex concept, but as i said, these kinds of games worked really well for me in the past. In one campaign, I think it helped that there was a rival wizard, just as evil as the group out to take from them what they had taken from others, or even outright have them killed - so they had this "us vs him" thing that worked out well.

I'm not sure I would end up running a campaign as evil as some had been back then, but running the more "selfish" campaigns that have moments of evil acts by the PC's is pretty much where most of my campaigns fall (with the exception of my first 4e campaign, where everyone was generally good).
 

Turtlejay

First Post
To clarify, if anyone does go to the link in the OP, his writeups are all real, except for the two evil campaign ones. They are fictitious and relating to the comic storyline.

I agree the art is not great, but I mostly ignore it. I view the comic more as an "episodic fictional d&d campaign dramatization".

Jay
 

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