Evil or not?

[Jeff Wilder]

my normal group [...] and have no need for the crutch of alignment to play 'good guys.'

Alignment isn't a crutch, it's simply a short-hand description (with a few mechanical effects), and as such is extremely useful ... to the extent people share understanding of it.

I've found that there's one group of people that habitually misunderstand alignment as much as the typical disruptive Lawful Good or Chaotic Evil players do: gamers who sneer at alignment.

 

[Rechan]

Besides. It's really easy to imagine why an Evil character would hang out with a group of Good PCs: The PCs kill stuff for loot. If he just wants to exert some violence, why not hang out with people who regularly kill things? Sure, he can't stab the defenseless, but he's still butchering funny-looking humanoids (or evil humans, or ...) by the dozen and getting paid to do it!

Being part of an adventuring group is the quickest way to power and riches. Because they don't even have to work their way up a chain of command, or get heat for slaughtering countless individuals; they are on the fast track of an acceptable practice called kicking in doors and taking the stuff of other people who do bad things.

 

[Korgoth]

Besides. It's really easy to imagine why an Evil character would hang out with a group of Good PCs: The PCs kill stuff for loot. If he just wants to exert some violence, why not hang out with people who regularly kill things? Sure, he can't stab the defenseless, but he's still butchering funny-looking humanoids (or evil humans, or ...) by the dozen and getting paid to do it!

Being part of an adventuring group is the quickest way to power and riches. Because they don't even have to work their way up a chain of command, or get heat for slaughtering countless individuals; they are on the fast track of an acceptable practice called kicking in doors and taking the stuff of other people who do bad things.

True enough. Evil characters might even help kill the Evil Overlord (tm). They surely won't spare him out of "professional courtesy". Evil guys might not risk their necks to help someone else, but they might have personal reasons. Maybe the Evil Overlord killed their family (Evil types can still love their mom, or at least decide to kill you if you mess with her). Or maybe the Evil PC just doesn't like the Evil Overlord's face. An Evil character can have dozens of different reasons why he wants to kill the bad guy... a Good character, by contrast, can have only a few (altruism, justice, etc.).

I don't see Good and Evil (the D&D alignments) as "teams". Evil guys kill each other all the time. That's part of the shtick, actually. Good guys kill each other, too. Look at the Battle of Crecy, for example. Were Edward III or Philip VI, or their knights, particularly evil? I'd tend to put them on the Good side of things. Yet they waged a battle which ended up being very bloody (for the French and their allies, anyway). Good types can have disputes over territory, succession and other matters which lead to warfare.

In terms of intra-party rivalry, I can imagine a situation in which an Evil character plays nice with the rest of the group (he likes his friends, but he'd let them die to save himself) while two Good characters are constantly at each other's throats (as good knights, they're both loyal to their kings... who happen to be at war).

 

[shilsen]

Okay Shilsen, I have to know. The what in the WHAT?

It's pretty straightforward. Our PCs found a box (well, a guy walked into the bar we use as our base of operations carrying it, even though he was evidently already dead). The box couldn't be opened by any means and it spoke to our paladin and told him it was a god. We're in a setting where new gods show up on and off, and some people picked up the aura of this one and tried to take it from us. So, for safekeeping, the paladin stores it in his codpiece now. He's a dragonborn, so like all reptiles he has recessed genitalia and there's lots of space. The recessed genitalia is an important character trait and the reason he practices courtly love, but that's another story.

See, I told you it was straightforward.

 

[SHARK]

Greetings!

Heh. Alignment is an interesting, and fairly simple and easy way to visualize a specific character's *world view*. The character's general tendencies and guiding beliefs and principles.

As for player characters stealing a betraying each other? Well, in the groups I have played with through the years, it hasn't really happened. They generally have the standard policy--they don't care how much of a "scoundrel" or what kind of smooth, uber-rogue someone thinks they are;

First time anyone finds out that such a rogue or whoever stole from them--let alone other forms of betrayal--they are simply hunted down, and killed by the most convenient methods at hand. End of story. Time for the moron to roll up a new character--and one that understands loyalty to the party better. Otherwise, they'll just be rolling up yet another character for their stupidity; rinse and repeat until they get with the program.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

 

[Rechan]

The one "Evil"-type that I rarely ever see is actually a campaign, or a character or two who are out to be the evil overlord. Most "Evil" campaigns I've heard of are just "Same Adventuring Party, Different Morals".

The idea here though is you treat it like a sandbox/resource gathering game of building an empire/organization/whatever, and ruling it, defending your turf, gaining more power, etc. So it becomes nation building - with EVIL.

 

[Dausuul]

The one "Evil"-type that I rarely ever see is actually a campaign, or a character or two who are out to be the evil overlord. Most "Evil" campaigns I've heard of are just "Same Adventuring Party, Different Morals".

The idea here though is you treat it like a sandbox/resource gathering game of building an empire/organization/whatever, and ruling it, defending your turf, gaining more power, etc. So it becomes nation building - with EVIL.

I've run a campaign sort of like that, although it was more directed than the typical sandbox (the PCs were the last surviving servants of an evil god who was seeking to free himself from imprisonment and conquer the world). I'd be interested in running something like that again at some point, actually.

 

[Ktulu]

I'm torn on this. While I prefer to run heroic tales with heroic characters, I can see the draw to play the badguy. There are plenty of tales where the evil person is the protagonist (punisher, dexter, dusk til dawn, etc..) and when done right it can be very effective.

However, I don't care for the "eeeeevil" character at all. The guy who's a sociopath, mass murderer for the sake of it, clerics of the really really evil gods (vecna, bane). To me, those characters are the worst of the evils. If he has no redeeming qualities and his evil isn't even a necessary evil, then I don't want to run that character.

In my current campaign we have two "evil" characters. One is a warrior who made a pact with the devil to get revenge on his wife's murder (I told the twist in another thread). The devil did send him off the deep end into very, very dark territory (Torture, murder, etc..). He has since redeemed himself and turned away from the pact toward the light.

The other evil character is a rogue/assassin who started out as just a muscle for hire, but through failure and loss has become a hollow shell. He has forsaken all in the name of vengence. The player is essentially mirroring the above player's character right now. His chance for redemption is slipping, however, and may prove to end up the villain of his own story.

So, I guess it depends on what you're intentions are in the game. In some campaigns I strictly request that no evil characters be played. In others I don't care. Especially in the S&S style games I run. Even at Conan's best days, he didn't rise too far from thief and brigand.

 

[WetWombat]

It seems to me that, from a certain point of view, the PC's are evil. (Assuming their overall MO is to kill people (For certain subsets of the value people.) and take their stuff.) For all intents and purposes, those very activities are evil. Never mind that their actions are for the Greater Good (tm), as when the party eliminates the warlord intent on conquering all of Elbownia, sacking Humerous, and claiming the McGuffin of Epidermis for his own bent purposes. It still boils down to murder and theft, doesn't it?

THE Wombat, still giggling at Shilsen's "Straightforward" situation, and TRYING to contribute something meaningful. (Wet.)

 

[Rechan]

I'm torn on this. While I prefer to run heroic tales with heroic characters, I can see the draw to play the badguy. There are plenty of tales where the evil person is the protagonist (punisher, dexter, dusk til dawn, etc..) and when done right it can be very effective.

However, I don't care for the "eeeeevil" character at all. The guy who's a sociopath, mass murderer for the sake of it, clerics of the really really evil gods (vecna, bane). To me, those characters are the worst of the evils. If he has no redeeming qualities and his evil isn't even a necessary evil, then I don't want to run that character.

Really it depends on how you spin it; I don't think Vecna or Bane are evil for evil's sake without any redeeming qualities. It just depends on the circumstances.

For instance, Bane is the god of Tyranny. Well, Tyranny - despite being despicable and horrible - can be the lesser of two evils. If a region is swept in chaos, warlords and tribal violence, one tyrant can come in, flatten it under a boothill, and keep all the unstable factions in check. "Order by any means necessary" is rather nasty, but the alternative can be worse. It comes down to which you prioritize more, and the opposition (and the terms of the tyrant).

I actually think Vecna isn't that bad of an evil god (but then, I love Undead). Besides, Undeath is certainly in the portfolio, but you can play with that some. Perhaps certain Vecna priests are about curtailing the population of uncontrollable undead; free-spawning wraiths are reckless pests, etc. Also, Vecna is the God of Secrets; that isn't just collecting secrets, but protecting them; keeping the scroll of Hastur under wraps sounds like a job for Vecna!

[sblock=Tangent]I also generally dislike the argument that Undead are just Evil by nature. The 3e assumption is that Negative energy is bad (because it just Is) and since Undead are powered by negative energy, they therefore are bad. I find the 'Negative Energy = Evil' a cop-out, among other things, and it just doesn't jive with me at all.[/sblock]

The only real annoying god you have to deal with is those of Slaughter. Although, with the right spin, you can certainly say that the God fo Slaughter is for the death of the inferior, the weak. Thus, they're Darwinians with Swords.