Exactly when can you use an immediate action

[amethal]

I know you can use an imemediate action when it isn't your turn, but how does that work in practice?

One of my players has taken the abrubt jaunt alternative conjurer class feature from PHB2 which allows a 10' teleport as an immediate action.

On my turn, the monster does the following :-

Takes a move action ...

Takes a standard action to attack PC ...

Rolls to hit ....

Rolls for damage

Is the PC allowed to take his immediate action after the hit roll (once he knows the attack is going to hit) and use it to avoid the damage?

Can he take it after the damage roll (once he knows how much damage he would take) and use it to avoid the damage?

Personally I'd be happy for the PC to take the immediate action at any point up until the bad guy has rolled to hit, but what do the rules say?

 

[shilsen]

In your example, I'd say the PC has to choose to use the immediate action when the moster is attacking. He can't do so after it has successfully attacked without taking the damage. You, as a DM, may be rolling to hit and damage separately, but that's at the table. In game, if the monster hits successfully then it does damage immediately, so you can't take an action in between. Or at least that's how I see it.

 

[werk]

You, as a DM, may be rolling to hit and damage separately, but that's at the table. In game, if the monster hits successfully then it does damage immediately, so you can't take an action in between. Or at least that's how I see it.

100% agree.

I believe the books suggest rolling the attack and damage dice at the same time (although not specifically for this reason).

 

[cheshire_grin]

In your example, I'd say the PC has to choose to use the immediate action when the moster is attacking. He can't do so after it has successfully attacked without taking the damage. You, as a DM, may be rolling to hit and damage separately, but that's at the table. In game, if the monster hits successfully then it does damage immediately, so you can't take an action in between. Or at least that's how I see it.

The closest thing I can find to any kind of written rule is in the Tome of Battle.

The Wall of Blades Iron Heart maneuver has an initiation action of 1 immediate action, but states in its description, "You can decide to use this ability after you learn the result of your opponent's attack". In other words, between the to-hit and the damage rolls.

However, the Manticore Parry maneuver (also an immediate action to activate) specifically says "You must decide whether to initiate this maneuver after the enemy attacks, but before you know whether or not the attack you are attempting to deflect actually hits" (emphasis added)--in other words, you cannot activate it between the to-hit and damage rolls, you must do so prior to the to-hit roll.

So the rules seem to go both ways (within two pages of a single sourcebook...).

Personally I would rule that unless an ability specifically allows activation between to-hit and damage (as Wall of Blades does), you cannot take an immediate action between to-hit and damage rolls, only before or after both.

 

[irdeggman]

I also agree.


2 actions never occur at the same time - even if both have the same initiative results.

Well - that is no two characters perform actions at the same time that is.

There are some specific cases where you can use an immediate action to negate damage.

The elan (in Xp Psi) for instance. When taking damage an elan can as an immediate action spend a power point to reduce the severity of the damage she is about to take.

But this is not quite the same as "avoiding" the damage. I believe there are some maneuvers that allow something to be done between being hit and recieving the damage from being hit - but they are all specifically laid out - so in essence they are "exceptions" and not the rule.

 

[amethal]

Thanks for the input guys.

I'll let him use it when the monster "declares" an attack but before the attack takes place.

If he chooses not to use it, then he suffers the attack and any resulting damage.

Of course, I'll have to remember to give him the chance to use it. I've got a bad habit of rolling the attack roll and damage and then telling the party which of them has been hit

 

[Pyrex]

I'll let him use it when the monster "declares" an attack but before the attack takes place.

If he chooses not to use it, then he suffers the attack and any resulting damage.

That's exactly how we do it in our game where the wizard has the same ability.

It's also our general ruling for immediate actions that don't say otherwise: You can't activate your immediate action *during* an opponents action. You can either do it when they declare their action (i.e., before the attack roll) or after it finishes resolving (after damage is rolled & applied).

 

[Hypersmurf]

2 actions never occur at the same time - even if both have the same initiative results.

The AoO from Karmic Strike occurs "at the same instant your opponent hits you".

-Hyp.

 

[Arkhandus]

Is the PC allowed to take his immediate action after the hit roll (once he knows the attack is going to hit) and use it to avoid the damage?

Can he take it after the damage roll (once he knows how much damage he would take) and use it to avoid the damage?

The rules say no. He cannot take an immediate action after he knows he's going to be hit, nor after he knows how much damage it would be. If he's going to use his immediate action, he has to do it before the attack, interrupting the attack.

 

[irdeggman]

The AoO from Karmic Strike occurs "at the same instant your opponent hits you".

-Hyp.

An AoO is not an "action" in the context we are discussing. It is completely different than an immediate action, swift, move, standard, etc. It is "outside" the normal actions. In fact they (AoO) "interrupt" the opponent's action before "completion".

An attack of opportunity “interrupts” the normal flow of actions in the round. If an attack of opportunity is provoked, immediately resolve the attack of opportunity, then continue with the next character’s turn (or complete the current turn, if the attack of opportunity was provoked in the midst of a character’s turn).

As far as performing other actions the rules of initiative should apply:

SRD:

Initiative Checks: At the start of a battle, each combatant makes an initiative check. An initiative check is a Dexterity check. Each character applies his or her Dexterity modifier to the roll. Characters act in order, counting down from highest result to lowest. In every round that follows, the characters act in the same order (unless a character takes an action that results in his or her initiative changing; see Special Initiative Actions).

If two or more combatants have the same initiative check result, the combatants who are tied act in order of total initiative modifier (highest first). If there is still a tie, the tied characters should roll again to determine which one of them goes before the other.