D&D 5E Examples of a Strength Saving Throw

[Imaculata]

Arm wrestling a frost giant.

 

[Li Shenron]

The bug is that Saving Throw DCs tend to scale at a particular rate. For PCs, they go up with ability scores and proficiency mod. This means they typically go up by +6 or so over the course of 20 levels.

A weak save goes up by 0, and possibly starts in the negative.

So, Jim the Fighter starts with a -1 Wisdom against DC 13 will saves. He can succeed on a roll of 12. It's hard, but he has about a 1/3rd chance of succeeding. Not the end of the world.

At level 20, Jim the Fighter still has a -1 Wisdom save. Only now, DCs from meaningful challenges are around DC 19. He has to roll a 20 to succeed (on top of a failed wisdom save potentially meaning much worse at 20th level then at first).

I don't like this about this system, and I didn't like it about 3rd either. Since I've never seen the designers say that this is an intended part of the system, I'm not really convinced by you simply saying that it is so. Do you have an explanation more than "it is because it is"?

In the early playtest packets spells DCs didn't scale, and ST didn't scale either. There was no need for ST proficiency. In a sense, there was no need even to give a different name to saving throws, they were just ability checks.

I kind of liked that system because of its simplicity, but in the end the community wanted DCs to scale so that higher-level spellcaster had more powerful spells, and so ST had to scale as well, but as for all other things affected by proficiency, there is improvement over level for those who aren't proficient. The only way to improve is to get a new proficiency (Resilient feat).

 

[redrick]

The bug is that Saving Throw DCs tend to scale at a particular rate. For PCs, they go up with ability scores and proficiency mod. This means they typically go up by +6 or so over the course of 20 levels.

A weak save goes up by 0, and possibly starts in the negative.

So, Jim the Fighter starts with a -1 Wisdom against DC 13 will saves. He can succeed on a roll of 12. It's hard, but he has about a 1/3rd chance of succeeding. Not the end of the world.

At level 20, Jim the Fighter still has a -1 Wisdom save. Only now, DCs from meaningful challenges are around DC 19. He has to roll a 20 to succeed (on top of a failed wisdom save potentially meaning much worse at 20th level then at first).

I don't like this about this system, and I didn't like it about 3rd either. Since I've never seen the designers say that this is an intended part of the system, I'm not really convinced by you simply saying that it is so. Do you have an explanation more than "it is because it is"?

It's an obvious consequence of tracking saves to proficiency bonus. I have a very hard time believing that the designers, in all their playtesting, left it in there by accident. It is most likely that the consequences are intentional.

Saving throws in TSR D&D have a fairly different approach than in WoTC D&D. In OD&D/AD&D, they seem to work more like plot armor. As your character increases in level, all your saves increase, whereas many DCs do not. Some classes do better in some saves than others, but all characters are more likely to save than die against poison needle traps at high levels.

In WoTC D&D, saving throws represent achilles's heels. As your character approaches nigh-invincible levels, the saving throws begin to represent their glaring weaknesses. Pretty hard to hit Jim with an axe, but you can tie him up with a Hold Person spell.

It is worth noting that a player can choose to shore up weak saves as they level. Your fighter has had 7 ability score improvements by the 20th level. If playing with feats, just grabbing Resilient in Wisdom and maybe Dex will make this guy a lot hardier. 5 feats left over. I'm also not so sure of your assertion that "meaningful challenges" at 20th level are around DC 19. Characters will absolutely be facing CR20 monsters and higher, but they should also be facing groups of CR12 monsters, etc. That being said, I've never run a level 20 campaign and doubt I ever will, so I'm theory-crafting just as much as you are.

 

[Jester David]

Opposed rolls take some of the thunder away from Strength saves. A lot could be a static DC. Grappling for instance could even be a save situation. In that instance opposed checks are almost an odd legacy rule from before Strength saves. But they still work in situations where skill might matter more than raw ability scores.

Strength saves mostly come up in situations that would be opposed but where the force doesn't have a statblocks.

 

[redrick]

Opposed rolls take some of the thunder away from Strength saves. A lot could be a static DC. Grappling for instance could even be a save situation. In that instance opposed checks are almost an odd legacy rule from before Strength saves. But they still work in situations where skill might matter more than raw ability scores.

Strength saves mostly come up in situations that would be opposed but where the force doesn't have a statblocks.

Yeah, opposed rolls certainly occupy an interesting niche within Saves, Checks and Attacks.

As I generally see it used in monster statblocks, the opposed roll is for a primary action, whereas the Strength check is for a secondary consequence.

Eg:

A) Creature grapples PC: Make an opposed athletics check.
B) Creature attacks PC with grasping tentacles: Make an attack roll. On a hit, require a Strength save to avoid being grappled.

If anything, I would say option B is more common in the statblocks that I have seen, though any NPC/Monster has an implied ability to replace the Attack action with a Grapple attack, so long as it could feasibly grapple something.

 

[Eltab]

Potential STR check: You have been captured and are being beat up before questioning. STR Check to see how well you tough it out.

My Tiamat group is set to interrogate the Rider of the Green Dragon. I do not want to RP that part, I want to make it a skill challenge. One of them (NE Warlock) wants to beat the stuffing out of the Rider in the process.