excel 3.5e party experience calculator updated (epic & legal)

[Wulf Ratbane]

I understand your point.

Nevertheless, the method you describe is the one that appears in the DMG and the table is just an expression of that method. I'll grant you that it's probably impossible to copyright (or whatever) a mathematical formula, but it's still their method.

Of course, it doesn't matter here since the actual table that we find in the DMG and not in the SRD is reproduced in the excel sheet attached.

AR

Hmmm... I kind of think you have it backwards. The table in the DMG is the visual, text expression of a particular mathematical formula. In their version, Variable A = 1000 and Variable B = 13 1/3.

My point ultimately is that it's possible to create an Excel sheet that does not use anything expressed in the DMG or otherwise copyrighted.

The larger issue is that WOTC really isn't much going to care if GMs are making their lives easier with Excel spreadsheets. But if you ARE concerned about it, you can generate that entire table mathematically (instead of explicitly).

The concept of accumulating experience points and gaining levels is well established, so you can attempt to answer the question, "How often should characters level up?" pretty much however you like.

Note that the d20 STL specifically does not restrict the creation of an XP table.

Wulf

 

[Altamont Ravenard]

Hmmm... I kind of think you have it backwards. The table in the DMG is the visual, text expression of a particular mathematical formula. In their version, Variable A = 1000 and Variable B = 13 1/3.

My point ultimately is that it's possible to create an Excel sheet that does not use anything expressed in the DMG or otherwise copyrighted.

Isn't 1000 & 13 1/3 clearly expressed in the DMG?

The larger issue is that WOTC really isn't much going to care if GMs are making their lives easier with Excel spreadsheets. But if you ARE concerned about it, you can generate that entire table mathematically (instead of explicitly).

I totally agree.

Note that the d20 STL specifically does not restrict the creation of an XP table.

OK. Does it allow you to reproduce the original XP table though?

I guess what my remark / question boils down to is why is it possible to make a XP calculator and link it / post it, all the while we can't have a thread with that table in it.

Do you consider that the Starting Gold issue is different since the table wasn't produced mathematically (or in such a mathematical way that's beyond mortal comprehension)?

I don't want to sound antagonistic or bitter or whatever. I don't want to crap on the good work that Plane Sailing has done (I made and posted a similar sheet when FRCS came out). I just want to be sure on what's OK, what's not, and why some things are while other very similar things aren't.

Thanks for the responses so far.

AR

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

Isn't 1000 & 13 1/3 clearly expressed in the DMG?

Which is why I recommend for the Excel sheet that you take those constants out, and allow the GM to input them as variables instead.

OK. Does it allow you to reproduce the original XP table though?

If it was my Excel sheet, and it did not include a reproduction of the table, merely a mathematical expression, I'd feel pretty safe. (But I'm not a lawyer, I just do this for fun.)

I guess what my remark / question boils down to is why is it possible to make a XP calculator and link it / post it, all the while we can't have a thread with that table in it.

I'm kind with you on that one, actually. You'll have to wait for a moderator to answer.

Do you consider that the Starting Gold issue is different since the table wasn't produced mathematically (or in such a mathematical way that's beyond mortal comprehension)?

Yes, I do consider it a seperate issue-- at least until a mathematical formula for that table can be derived. (And believe me, I have tried).

You'll note that the Treasure Per Encounter values ARE included in the SRD. One could go through the same mental exercises.

If it takes 13 1/3 encounters at 1st level to level up,

and each 1st level encounter nets 300 gp in treasure,

and each party is four people,

then over the course of making it from level 1 to level 2, each character will accumulate 1000 gp worth of stuff.

Of course, where it gets tricky is in figuring out how much of those resources are expended in the course of 13 1/3 encounters (buying more arrows, potions of healing, paying sages, gathering rumors, livin' high on the hog, etc.)

It seems WOTC thinks that a 2nd level character expends 10% of his haul-- because the (copyrighted) answer to the question, "How much gold does a 2nd level character start with?" is 900 gp.

Now, you can't just take the Starting Wealth table and reproduce it, but if you can go through the process to derive your own equations and your own table-- and "show your work"-- then I think you'll be ok.

Wulf

 

[Altamont Ravenard]

By Jove I think you've got it.

For starting money at level 3, we have

(600 gold per encounter * 13 1/3)/4 party members = 2000

2000 - 10% = 1800

1800 + 900 (ie starting gold for a 2nd-level character) = 2700

= starting gold for a 3rd level character.

Of course, this makes for a recursive mathematical formula, but a general formula nonetheless.

I'll have to check if this holds for higher levels.

AR

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

I'll have to check if this holds for higher levels.

Let me save you the trouble: It don't.

If there is a mathematical way to express the NPC wealth table, the finest minds in Bangalore couldn't find it. (Yeah, I went offshore. Sue me!)

I think at some point whoever created that table went with the T-LAR method.

Wulf

 

[Altamont Ravenard]

Let me save you the trouble: It don't.

If there is a mathematical way to express the NPC wealth table, the finest minds in Bangalore couldn't find it. (Yeah, I went offshore. Sue me!)

I think at some point whoever created that table went with the T-LAR method.

Wulf

Yeah it breaks down at level 5 (where the expenses rise to 25%) and then the expenses aren't constant. Dang. I could still build a table with many variables (# of encounters per level, average # of members in party, expense % per level), but it wouldn't be slick.

2 questions: where (what?) is Bangalore, and what is the T-LAR method?

AR

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

2 questions: where (what?) is Bangalore, and what is the T-LAR method?

1) Bangalore, India.

2) That Looks About Right.

 

[Altamont Ravenard]

1) Bangalore, India.

2) That Looks About Right.

1) OK

2) OK

So, any moderator word out there regarding my maybe-illicit attachment?

AR

 

[Plane Sailing]

Taking on board comments made here and elsewhere, I've managed to deduce the formulaic structure of the xp table, and I've now uploaded a new version of the experience calculator spreadsheet here http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?p=1338991 which doesn't include the DMG xp table, and will support epic level characters and challenge ratings as a by-product of moving to a formula vs a table.

(it also takes into account the fact that levels 1-3 share the same xp awards, and CR1 creature awards are capped at 300xp max)

Cheers, and thanks for the feedback!

 

[Joshua Randall]

Plane Sailing > sliced bread with fresh, creamy butter on it.