Excerpt: Minions. Go forth mine minions! Bring havoc with your 1 hp [merged]

[JesterOC]

Nope. Just inconsistent

They are suposed to be inconsistant, they are a special case rules to be used only under the proper conditions. It is a form of optimization to lower the workload on the DM. If you don't want the optimization don't use them.

However if they aren't obvious, the DM is by and large being a jerk to the players, and playing a game of 'Gotcha! You wasted your encounter/daily powers, ha ha'. That doesn't strike me as satisfying either.

It is not a waste if the character feels threatened enough to use it. You seem to think they are a joke monster created just to tease players by 'faking' them into thinking they are a threat but they are not. A large mob of minons that is level balanced for the PC's is a real threat. They can kill the party, if the party does not treat them with respect.

You don't have to use minons. It just is easier and faster to use them. If you want to sacrafice the speed of combat for consistancy, go for it (if you are the DM of course).

On the other hand use them if you like the idea of huge mobs of creatures that are deadly and easier to DM as long as you realize that they can only be used in controlled situations.

JesterOC

 

[Korgoth]

Actually, I do. Because thats what the rules say. If you do one point of damage to any of those things, they are dead or destroyed. Its an absurdity, but its the games absurdity, not mine. But can we go back to the minion rules, because I was certainly never criticizing it based on 3e. I was criticizing it based on the fact that its internally inconsistent with other parts of 4e.

So because both a paper wall and a commoner in 3.x have the same hit points, you assume that they have the same physical properties? You're right that it is an absurdity, but I maintain that the absurdity is of your own design. You're construing the rules in the most absurd light possible and then complaining about the absurdity. That's like me going to McDonald's and complaining that the menu is mostly hamburgers... it's a result that I engineered for myself.

It seems that a fair number of people have put forward reasonable interpretations of the "1 hit point" status (my interpretation being the most reasonable, obviously). So you have your choice of suitable rationales here! But it just doesn't make any sense to say "If I construe this rule ludicrously, it comes off sounding ludicrous." Of course it does, if you do that.

 

[Scribble]

Nope. Just inconsistent

Still not seeing how.

Everything in D&D has a percentage chance of being dead or not dead. Minions are no different.

If the rules said soemthign like Minions are around until the DM decides they should die... THAT would be inconsistent.

However if they aren't obvious, the DM is by and large being a jerk to the players, and playing a game of 'Gotcha! You wasted your encounter/daily powers, ha ha'. That doesn't strike me as satisfying either.

I think it will be fairly obvious myself. I mean the Guy standing in the back Yelling "HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH GET THEM!!! GET THEM!!!!!!" is probably not a minion...

But how is it a waste of a power?

The whole point of minions is to have a large number of goons that are still a credible threat. So you used your powers to get rid of a credible threat... Isn't that what they're for?

 

[Fallen Seraph]

@Fallen Seraph- why wouldn't it? He knows that certain types of monsters go down in one hit, and others don't. Once he learns which types those are, why wouldn't he take advantage of it? On one level, I agree with you, because I dislike the fact that it encourages this sort of metagame thinking, but the system by and large encourages it.

If there was a determinable difference then yeah. Like in 3e, with skeletons you would switch your dagger for a club.

But with minions, they are exactly the same as any other monster of its race. So a normal kobold and a kobold minion are exactly the same. The only difference is that in-game, the one kobold blocks the hit, the other is beheaded.

To use a movie example, we see in LoTR there is scenes where one Orc takes slightly more effort to bring down then another. They both look and act the same, it is simply circumstance, luck, etc. that determines the difference.

 

[drjones]

Yeah, I've thought of that. It wouldn't feel slower to me because I am painfully aware of how the +1/2 level advancement is an illusion, but for someone who finds it to be a pleasurable but nutrition-free placebo (like candy made from gum arabic and Splenda), there would be a sense of loss. I think I could sell it as "Removing needless complexity from the game", since they still get all the cool class powers and such. After all, static bonuses really aren't that interesting compared to Acid Arrow or Tide of Iron, and once you've made the mental adjustment (and seen from gameplay experience that nothing is lost), smooth sailing should follow.

But.. all advancement in all RPGs is an illusion. Unless you count advancing waistlines from too much pizza and beer.

 

[Saitou]

So I read through this entire thread.

And this is some epic whining. Square peg into round hole, the works. It's... impressive.

And I hang around videogame fanboys for cryin' out loud.


I think Voss's problem is he keeps telling himself he's being "gamist" or is adhering to the rules of the "game" when in fact he just doesn't understand, or doesn't want to accept a perfectly consistent if a bit Schrodingeresque mook in the Minion.

 

[Jhaelen]

All minions die when they take at least 1 point of damage from a direct hit. It doesn't matter what the source is, or anything else, just that attack hits and does measurable damage. There aren't any exceptions involved- the attacker doesn't have to be of an appropriate level, a PC or be wearing a blue scarf under the moon- the attacker just has to hit it with a damaging attack.

I actually disagree about this conclusion. The minion rules are for combats between pcs and minions with an identical level.

I've already mentioned it in Irda's thread:
For a commoner (or a level 1 pc) a level 21 minion wouldn't actually be a minion. It would 'morph' into a regular monster of the same variety.

The article describes the opposite effect, since it happens in both directions:
The level 8 ogres of old 'morph' into level 16 minions when the level 16 pcs return to the area where they battled ogres before.

I'm _really_ glad the article pointed out that it doesn't really make sense to have a level 1 party encounter a level 20 minion even if it would be a level-appropriate encounter if you just looked at the xp value. Imho, pcs should never encounter minions of a level higher than their own. If their level is higher they're no longer minions!

So, if you had a mixed group of level 16 pcs and level 1 npcs (for whatever reason), the pcs would be able to kill the level 16 ogre minions with a single hit but the level 1 npcs wouldn't because to them they're not minions.

Similarly, I've seen a thread with a topic like 'what happens if two minions have a fist-fight?'. I didn't even look into the thread, since the answer is obvious to me: Minions are not minions if they're encountered by minions.

Encounters between npcs/minions and minions should simply be handwaved. Narrate them in any way that helps make the story work.

 

[TheSleepyKing]

Seems to me that if he is more well known for the axe, then he's probably using the axe more often than not. If he's using the dagger more, then he'd probably be well known for that.

So most times he uses an axe. Sometimes a dagger. I honestly don't understand what's wrong with that.

I believe what he's referring to is the problem of players (meta)gaming the system. Since daggers get a bonus to attack over axes, why wouldn't you use them on minions? It's probably out of character for a PC to pull out a lower-damage, higher accuracy weapon to deal with minions, but the minion system gives the player a definite incentive to do so. They'll never use power attack, or any ability that would reduce their ability to hit -- which would be weird for a barbarian-style character that always uses power attack. Likewise, players will choose an area attack with a large coverage but lower damage over a more focused blast because the wide area power works better as a "minion clearer".

Really, this is the only problem I have with minions. I understand the complaint about the relativistic nature of minions (ie. that to a first level party there is no such thing as a level 8 ogre minion -- all ogres are tough, it's only when the players reach 8th level that ogres can become minions), and how it makes the world PC-centric, but I tend to think that's something that's problematic in theory but works out in practice. (EDIT: Like Jhaelen just said in the post above ).

 

[Bill Bisco]

Another weird thing that the minion rules encourage:

Hrothgar the Mighty has made his name with his great axe, Dragon-hewer. But those who follow the saga of Hrothgar the Mighty have noted a peculiar quirk that Hrothgar exhibits in battle. At times he is seen to discard the axe he values so highly, and pull out a wicked dagger that he calls Minion-Poker. When asked about this behavior by a brave bard over many cups of ale, Hrothgar said:

'What am I, an idiot? I've got an extra 10% chance to hit with this thing, and it doesn't matter how much damage I do!'

Voss, reading this made me laugh very hard, and it's saddening that these other people can't appreciate it

I actually disagree about this conclusion. The minion rules are for combats between pcs and minions with an identical level.

I've already mentioned it in Irda's thread:
For a commoner (or a level 1 pc) a level 21 minion wouldn't actually be a minion. It would 'morph' into a regular monster of the same variety.

The article describes the opposite effect, since it happens in both directions:
The level 8 ogres of old 'morph' into level 16 minions when the level 16 pcs return to the area where they battled ogres before.

I'm _really_ glad the article pointed out that it doesn't really make sense to have a level 1 party encounter a level 20 minion even if it would be a level-appropriate encounter if you just looked at the xp value. Imho, pcs should never encounter minions of a level higher than their own. If their level is higher they're no longer minions!

So, if you had a mixed group of level 16 pcs and level 1 npcs (for whatever reason), the pcs would be able to kill the level 16 ogre minions with a single hit but the level 1 npcs wouldn't because to them they're not minions.

Similarly, I've seen a thread with a topic like 'what happens if two minions have a fist-fight?'. I didn't even look into the thread, since the answer is obvious to me: Minions are not minions if they're encountered by minions.

Encounters between npcs/minions and minions should simply be handwaved. Narrate them in any way that helps make the story work.

This is all completely made up by you. You're looking at these rules and trying to craft them in a way that makes sense to you. We've seen no evidence of the rules saying that minions morph depending on their opponents.

The reason that this thread is going on for so long is because you all aren't talking mechanics, you're adding in your own ideas and trying to have an opinion contest. These metagame criticisms are valid criticisms. Now, if you don't find the implications that big of a deal, that's fine, but Voss's points are still valid.

 

[hong]

This is all completely made up by you. You're looking at these rules and trying to craft them in a way that makes sense to you.

One might posit that this is slightly more useful than looking at the rules and trying to craft them in a way that makes no sense to you.

But only slightly more useful, mind.