Excerpts: Angels

[Irda Ranger]

Not necessarily. Its just the current defense of the Monster Stat blocks. Anything left out is automatically a ritual, regardless of the lack of basis for the claim.

That's also driven by the removal of Knowledge, Perform, Craft and Profession from the Skill list. I know why they did it, but leaves us with few choices on how to model certain activities. We've got:

Rules for Killin' Things With Swords (Combat)
Rules for Killin' Things With Fire (Spells/Prayers)
Rules for Out-Smarting Things Tryin' to Kill Us With Swords And/Or Fire (Skills)
Stuff That Ain't (Directly) Killin' or Out-Smarting (Rituals)

It's only natural for people to want something a little more concrete than pure DM fiat on some matters, so given the tools we got, using Rituals as The Default Non-Combat Mechanic makes the most sense. They simply become (Knowledge + Money + Time = Result). Start with the Result you want, then work backwards from there.

And it's not a bad system either! If the Core Rules don't provide for Martial and/or Mundane Rituals I plan on expanding on it in numberous ways.

 

[Voss]

Haha yeah pretty much....though in all fairness there was nothing left out here. No mention was made of angels having any ability to polymorph at all, people are just speculating on how to give it to them.

And of course the ritual thing isn't all that different from other editions. How does a storm giant create his cloud castle or how does a wizard create an owlbear? With a arbitrary ritual that doesn't exist in any book.

Ah. I just figured the wizard started with a male owl and a female bear. (because the opposite would be messy).

 

[Andor]

That is a good point. The devils are perverted angels which killed the deity they served, but when angels are just mercenaries why was this act so evil to turn them into devils?

The act of rebellion did not turn them into devils. A deific death curse from the god the killed turned them into devils. Did no one read the devils article?

 

[Sojorn]

The act of rebellion did not turn them into devils. A deific death curse from the god the killed turned them into devils. Did no one read the devils article?

Where does it say the murdered god did it?

Long ago, Asmodeus was a powerful divine servant who chose to rebel against the god he served. At the head of an army of like-minded creatures, Asmodeus slew his divine master. For their betrayal, he and his followers were cursed with monstrous forms and imprisoned within the fuming ruin of the murdered god’s dominion.

Serious question as I'm curious if they've actually clarified who or what actually cursed the devils.

 

[WyzardWhately]

Ah. I just figured the wizard started with a male owl and a female bear. (because the opposite would be messy).

Well, you can do a lot with magic that makes animals bigger, or just use a dire owl. Also, it should have been a druid rather than a Wizard.

 

[Starbuck_II]

Well, you can do a lot with magic that makes animals bigger, or just use a dire owl. Also, it should have been a druid rather than a Wizard.

Wouldn't that have been messing with nature too much?

 

[Voss]

Well, you can do a lot with magic that makes animals bigger, or just use a dire owl. Also, it should have been a druid rather than a Wizard.

Ugh. I try to forget that 3rd edition propagated the idea of 'Dire Everything-under-the-sun'. In In its own way, its just as creepy as the bestiality crossbreeding fetish they developed.

Well... maybe not *that* creepy.

 

[TwinBahamut]

The more I look at it, the more I become certain that the reason I dislike 4E Angels is because they are built to work alongside 4E Gods. As something that works alongside 4E Gods, they really are not that bad, but 4E continues a very long D&D tradition of having really terrible implementations of gods.

Fundamentally, D&D Gods, Pantheons, Cosmologies, and Religions are a schizophrenic mess of contradictory definitions and ideas in which opposing ideas of polytheistic and monotheistic religions are thrown together randomly and added on top of some absurd framework that historically has assumed completely absurd ideas like "gods get their power from their worshipers" and "get enough worshipers and you too can be a god". As a whole, the entire mess doesn't even make any kind of coherent sense, especially when you try to make any kind of direct comparison between religion in D&D and real world religion.

As a whole, D&D religion tends to more closely resemble sleazy bureaucratic politics than anything else. The gods are politicians who hold some kind of office, worshipers are voters, and now they have completed the whole analogy by turning angels into lobbyists for special interest groups and political flunkies trying to earn a few favors. "Good" and "Evil" are little more than conflicting political parties. The "pantheon" is more of a government than an actual coherent pantheon. The whole thing reeks of sleaziness and pettiness, when it should be inspiring, interesting, and divine.

Also, please don't respond to this post with "that is how they were in Greek Mythology!". They weren't. Describing the difference might be worthy of a thread in its own right, but I completely reject any notion that D&D gods in any way resemble real-world polytheistic pantheons.

 

[Darth Cyric]

Previously, if you wanted an epic intraplanar conflict in your campaign, the good gods sent angels (people with wings, celestial beings, etc.) and the bad god sent devils/demons (Monsters with wings, sharp teeth, red skin, etc.)

Which made absolutely ZERO sense when you consider that devils/demons are supposed to work in their own interests, the two Fiendish Codexes (3.5 books) even saying as much. Devils/demons who are merely minions of evil gods (1) runs counter to that premise, and (2) are JUST. NOT. INTERESTING.

With 4e, instead they make the angels those who willingly attach themselves to the causes of deities. Which frees up devils/demons to finally be powers unto themselves. Now, evil gods who want infernal/abyssal assistance are going to have to bargain on the terms of the likes of Asmodeus and Orcus. And all of a sudden things actually got, you know, INTERESTING.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Fundamentally, D&D Gods, Pantheons, Cosmologies, and Religions are a schizophrenic mess of contradictory definitions and ideas in which opposing ideas of polytheistic and monotheistic religions are thrown together randomly and added on top of some absurd framework that historically has assumed completely absurd ideas like "gods get their power from their worshipers" and "get enough worshipers and you too can be a god". As a whole, the entire mess doesn't even make any kind of coherent sense, especially when you try to make any kind of direct comparison between religion in D&D and real world religion.

Actually, the reason I'm a fan of 4e gods is because this is exactly how real world religion works.

I know, you specifically didn't want this response, but it's definitely not just about the greek Olympians.

And that's all I'll really say to avoid the "no religion" hammer.