Excerpts: Swordmage

[Stalker0]

Overall, I still love the swordmage, but I am still gravely worried about the power of that aegis and potential power creep.

Bottom line is, reducing damage is a better way of defending than hurting the creature attacking.

For the fighter and paladin, the monster might know that its better to attack that juicy wizard, its just a question of whether they can provide enough incentive not too.

With the swordmage, its just a stupid idea for the monster to attack the wizard. With a con of 12, that's 6 damage off every swing. Since HP doesn't tend to be that big of a difference between classes anymore, a wizard under the aegis has more HP than the swordmage.

To summarize it, the fighter and paladin use damage against creatures that have far more hitpoints than they do. The swordmage reduces damage to protect allies that have few hitpoints.

I'm not opposed to the mechanic, afterall you need some way to divide future defenders from previous ones. But since the swordmage's defend mechanic uses a superior form, it should have a weaker effect. The fact that it can reduce about as much damage as a paladin's challenge can deal is where I am most concerned. I would see it more like 3+con mod, not 5.

I will definitely wait and see what actual play shows, but my spider sense is really tingling on this one.

 

[Kitirat]

The swordmage's power is implement vs reflex rather than the ranger's weapon vs AC - that should be roughly balanced.

The swordmage's power does 1d6 force damage compared to the ranger's W, which should be 1d8 or 1d10 with the possibility of weapon focus. The ranger damage is therefore clearly better. Whether it's sufficiently better to justify the difference between at-will and encounter I don't know.

Damage for both this and greenfire is not the issue, it is so little difference it makes little matter. It is the ability to tread so easily into multi-minion killing. Hit one, kill the rest. All ya need is one hit point damage.

I would certainly not agree the damage difference is worth an encounter instead of an at-will power. There is no other class in the game where their encounter power is equalled by another's at-will.

Broken IMO, but thanks for the comments, I'm most interested to see if Logan or another designer responds.

Kitirat

 

[ProfessorCirno]

I have nothing against whoever drew that picture.

Whoever DESIGNED it should be mauled :|

 

[Spatula]

Bottom line is, reducing damage is a better way of defending than hurting the creature attacking.

Yeah, this is my thinking as well. Monsters don't do enough damage to really be any kind of threat through the swordmage's damage reduction - and they're marked too, so the monsters are at -2 to hit and -7ish to damage, just at 1st level. The aegis of shielding basically becomes, "negate this monster's (1st) attack each round, unless it attacks the swordmage." And unlike the paladin's divine challenge, there's no requirement that you stay in attack range of the creature. You do need to be within 10 squares of your allies, though, in order to shield them.

Modelling the aegis as a bonus to AC (or to keep it simple, a further penalty on the monster's hit roll) would be more reasonable IMO.

I'm also not sure when you'd ever use aegis of assault over the aegis of shielding, since the class is Int-based and won't have very effective basic attacks. A choice between negating a monster's attack and the possibility of dealing a few points of damage, isn't a very good choice.

As far as offsets go, the class is a bit less durable than the fighter and the paladin - 8 healing surges vs 9 & 10 respectively, and no bonus to Fort or Reflex defense from the class or from using a shield. The swordmage should have a good Reflex regardless, since Int is the prime stat.

EDIT: Actually nevermind, the increased emphasis on Con makes the number of surges a wash. A defender swordmage has no real use for Str aside from getting hide armor proficiency, so everything goes into Int and Con. The numbers actually seem to come out roughly the same for everyone (assuming standard array and everyone having +2 items, fighter is wearing plate & swordmage is wearing hide).

Human Fighter 8		Human Paladin 8		Human Swordmage 8
STR 20	HP 66		STR 15	HP 63		STR 13	HP 67
CON 15	Surges 11	CON 12	Surges 11	CON 16	Surges 11
DEX 12	AC 26		DEX 11	AC 26		DEX 11	AC 27
INT 10	Fort 24		INT 10	Fort 20		INT 20	Fort 20
WIS 14	Refl 20		WIS 14	Refl 20		WIS 12	Refl 23
CHA 11	Will 19		CHA 20	Will 23		CHA 10	Will 20

 

[BeauNiddle]

Its odd that the only character that's giving me a meaningful disconnect of mechanics and flavor is a magical character class.

Booming Blade: it hits them, then blasts them with magic if they try to leave? Why not just blast them with magic automatically if you have the ability to blast them with magic?

Aegis of Shielding: It reduces damage dealt by the enemies attacks, but only if they aren't attacking you. Why? If you have the ability to reduce damage dealt, why not do it when they attack you as well?

I know, I know, "a wizard did it." But at least the other markings and quarry type abilities in the game make sense to me. If a fighter has your number, you'd better pay attention to him or he'll beat you senseless. If a paladin challenges you, you'd better accept the challenge or his god will scorch you where you stand. Once a ranger picks his target, he always gets his man. Once a warlock curses you, you're vulnerable to his magics.

Ok, I get those. But these I don't get. I guess I don't have to, really, because they're arcane. But still.

I was watching The Mask of Zorro recently and I remember that bit with the training circles "these circles are the world, nothing exists outside. As your skill increases the circles contract bringing your goal that much closer to you".

I consider the abilities are the same - the Swordmage challenges somebody and they BOTH get encapsulated in a glowing circle / shimmering shield. A sort of magical challenge "you're MY opponent" deal. If the person leaves the challenge they suffer damage (booming blade) or reduced damage (Aegis of Shielding as the 'magic' seeps into their muscles)

Thats why the effects dont help the swordmage since he and the opponent are both in the same circle.

 

[Kobold Avenger]

Aegis of Assualt is much different from Aegis of Shielding, it's an immediate reaction where the swordmage teleports beside the attacker and gets a free basic attack. Of course having that build means the swordmage must be more reliant on strength as an ability score.

 

[Zinovia]

Has anyone had a chance to play with the sword mage much? How do they feel compared to other defenders? Are they better or just different?

If we're seeing power creep in action and the sword mage is superior to the paladin or fighter, then I may not allow them in my upcoming game. I'd like to include them because I like the concept, but not if they unbalance the other classes.

 

[Caliber]

Note that it is an immediate action to activate the damage shield. I'm hoping this helps limit its usefulness. Also, AEs and simply getting away from the Swordmage seem like they may be good tactics.

I'm slightly worried as well though ...

 

[Cadfan]

I'm also not sure when you'd ever use aegis of assault over the aegis of shielding, since the class is Int-based and won't have very effective basic attacks. A choice between negating a monster's attack and the possibility of dealing a few points of damage, isn't a very good choice.

Its also an incredibly powerful mobility trick. Challenge enemies that are far away, and teleport adjacent to them. Or even just use it to teleport to the opposite side of enemies that are nearby, grabbing flanking positions.