Excising, Severely Limiting, or Strictly Organizing Feats

[Quickleaf]

I swear that looking at feat lists makes my eyes swim. One thing that 3e and 4e have in common is an excessive amount of feats. I don't want to wade through tons of feats when making my character. Please, for the love of Pete Seeger and the Silver Bullet Band, let the next edition make this possible. And if a bunch of feats are included as a module, have a "quick route" for players like me who don't want to mess around with a bunch of circumstantial bonuses and meh abilities.

 

[dkyle]

I think they're contemplating that feats would essentially be alternate class features. The core classes would come with feats "baked in", while more advanced games would allow them to be swapped out for custom feats.

My concern is that, traditionally, the simplest feats (the ones that give simple numbers bonuses, and likely to be baked into classes) are often the most effective ones. If that's the case, then customization is less meaningful.

 

[NewJeffCT]

I agree that they should be limited, and a more extensive list of feats should be an optional module.

I've typed up 3 different paragraphs with ideas on how to do that, but I've given up and I'll just say I have no idea how to pull it off easily. After typing up each paragraph, I looked at it and said, "nah, that won't work" and then deleted...

 

[MortalPlague]

It's a tricky thing to make work. I've looked at that myself and wondered just how Wizards could eliminate feats. They're so hard-wired into the design that it just doesn't seem possible. That said, there are a few things that could really help organize the lists, so that they're not just a huge wall of text.

Tiered feats are one way. Have Weapon Focus I, II, III, IV, and so on, so forth. Each one gives a different bonus which rewards someone for delving deeply into a single feat tree. Iron Heroes works like this, and it makes for some interesting character choices; do you dabble in a bit of everything, or specialize in one tree? Two fighters with different feat trees play quite differently.

The other possibility that jumps to mind is to split them by level, like spells. I doubt this is a way most people would enjoy, but it would definitely limit the number of feats available at any given time.

 

[Sunseeker]

By the end of an edition, I should expect that there are a pretty generous number of feats to choose from. If there are few feats it basically limits what you can build, and if everyone's putting together the same fighter, the same wizard, because there is so little choice, well, that's not a D&D I'm really interested in. I've already got a half a dozen MMOs that do that.

Feats need to accomplish two things:
1: Choice; feats need to allow you to customize your character.
2: Improvement; feats need allow you to become better at whatever you want your character to do.

At a very basic design, this means we'll have at least two feats at every point at which we can choose feats. So, 20ish feats per class. If a class offers multiple builds, then we have to multiply that 20 by the number of builds available. If we have 3 builds per class, we've not got 60ish feats per class. We could argue that some of these feats overlap, but we're not going to get rid of more than a quarter of them through overlap. so, 45 feats at best.

Honestly I don't see the objection to feats. I like them. They allow me to customize my character to make it more mine. Isn't that the whole point? I don't want to take an MMO-esque approach where all class builds are pre-baked into 31-point trees that are loaded with false choices.

 

[keterys]

I'd like to remove feats like Weapon Focus I - V entirely, even baked in and optional or not.

Being able to decide whether you get an extra spell slot or an at-will using a feat? Sure. Or (pulls firmly from ass based on the recent Ro3 about multiple attacks) the ability to shift between multiple attacks or the ability to knock prone if you hit someone multiple times?

Basically, different options that are interesting, not pure math.

 

[El Mahdi]

I like lots of Feats, but I do find it confusing and annoying to sift through a lot of them.

I've run into the same problem with my own houserules. I've limited the Feats down based on functionality, but still find that I have a massive and confusing amount of Feats that players have to sift through to build their characters.

I honestly don't know what the answer to this problem is.

I don't want to lose options and versatility, but I'm finding it difficult to organize in an easy and intuitive manner...

 

[KesselZero]

Yup, I totally agree. Feats in 3e and 4e got SO overwhelming SO quickly. Having to choose one or two things from a list with hundreds of items in it just to make a first-level character seems silly. And the fact of the matter is that there's a good-sized set of "must-take" feats that make the rest of the list moot anyway. Generally those are the flat-bonus feats, as noted before, because nothing conditional could ever be as good as a permanent bonus to every single freaking attack roll, or against every single attack made on me.

In addition, hopefully avoiding a huge number of feats will mean more focus on balancing them properly. Just look at Heavy Blade Expertise vs. Staff Expertise in 4e. The former gives you a +2 AC against opportunity attacks, for a weapon that's usually used by Defenders who aren't moving. The latter gives you total immunity to opportunity attacks when casting, completely eliminating the primary tool a DM has to control Controllers. +2 vs oppos from one, NO oppos from the other. Hmmm...

 

[Frostmarrow]

I say get rid of feats. We don't need them anymore. The only use feats are for is limiting your character. Say you are a wizard and you are not supposed to wield a longsword. Lack of a certain feat prohibits you from wielding it. I think we are better served by weapons that are designed for a purpose and that wizard/longsword simply isn't a good match.

Feats were a great addition to 3E. Feats were redundant in 4E. I hope feats are obsolete in Next.

 

[keterys]

One reason feats could be obsolete in 4e was cause of powers, though... so if powers go away for many classes, there's a vacuum there again.