Existing "Mature" Themes in already published products

[Fiery James]

Hey gang,

I was just posting a little blurb on the thread about Counters & the grids about a page of dark elf counters that we've got previewed on our site here.

While looking at it, I remembered something.

I know that there's been a lot of discussion about allowing mature themes into the game and how to handle them, but I'm surprised that no one has brought up Queen of Lies at all.

Looking at those images, the first two in the third row (the drow with the dark hair) are brother and sister. Has anyone who's read the adventure wondered at the fact that they share a room?

Or the slavery/torture that the dark elves use for amusement?

Or the gay NPCs in that adventure?

Or the drug use?

Queen of Lies has received it's share of discussion (especially at the start of the year when it was released), but no one has ever brought up these issues.

I'm just wondering if it's a sign that these so-called "Mature" issues can indeed be handled in a responsible and non-gratuitous fashion after all, or perhaps it's just a sign that we expect these kinds of things to show up in certain adventures, particularly those involving drow or demons or stuff like that...

Maybe, if Queen of Lies didn't bother you, BoVD won't either...? Conversely, perhaps if the adventure wasn't your cup of tea, the BoVD won't be either?

Just a thought...

- James

_______________-
T Minus 4 Weeks to New Baby

 

[BigFreekinGoblinoid]

The most "vile" material in a published game product I have seen so far is in "Armies of the Abyss" written by Erik Mona for Green Ronin.

I don't remember seeing ANY flak or controversy over this product. Maybe they should have sealed the pages and sent out a press release?

Don't have the book? OK:

The new character class "Thaumaturge" receive spells from Demon Lords in exchange for worship and obedience. The NPC(PC???? I hope not...) also receives physical "corruptions"

Corruption examples:

- "...your sexual fluid becomes ice cold to the touch. Any child sired or birthed by you gains the half-fiend template."

- "One of your eyes liquefies and completely melts..."

Examples of DAILY rituals required to receive spells:

-"... removes a maggot from his own dead flesh and pushes it into his eyesocket..."

-"...muck around inside the corpse with their bare hands..."


PS - I liked the book, but not as much as Legions of Hell. I have yet to run a NPC as a Thaumaturge, but this book can help you create some truly EVIL villians for which no one should have a problem finding a reason to oppose them...

 

[teitan]

Mature Themes all over the place

I don't think gamers have an issue with mature themes at all, look at the popularity of the World of Darkness and the Scarred Lands material has some definite mature themes in it.

Mature themes are very hard for DnD fans to cope with I believe. I remember reading about a heated discussion on Rivers of Blood for Living Greyhawk. That was a very mature themed adventure that most WOD or Kult players would have snickered at but DnD players were up in arms over it.

Horror games like Call of Cthulhu (even D20) cover extremely matures themes already like drug addiction and insanity.

The more mature games only sell to a niche market though. Kult has one through 2 and half editions already, because it sells, but not enough to keep someone in business for too long. Look at all the horror games that have come out in the last few years that breach subjects that would make CLive Barker proud though. Kult is just one of them, and probably the best of them.

I will love seeing the heat for Demon: The Fallen when it comes out if people are getting freaked by a not so Vile Darkness. I will get it myself, I get anything Monte.

Jason

 

[Psion]

I know that there's been a lot of discussion about allowing mature themes into the game and how to handle them, but I'm surprised that no one has brought up Queen of Lies at all.

I'm not.

Looking at those images, the first two in the third row (the drow with the dark hair) are brother and sister. Has anyone who's read the adventure wondered at the fact that they share a room?

Must... resist... RHPS... quote...

Or the slavery/torture that the dark elves use for amusement?

Or the gay NPCs in that adventure?

Or the drug use?

Slavery and torture are so commonplace inf FRPGs, I hardly think anyone notices. Has there ever been a Drow (or other BBEG race) that has not featured those highlights? It's a classic character lure.

Drug rules have existed in several d20 supplements to date.

I'm just wondering if it's a sign that these so-called "Mature" issues can indeed be handled in a responsible and non-gratuitous fashion after all, or perhaps it's just a sign that we expect these kinds of things to show up in certain adventures, particularly those involving drow or demons or stuff like that...

Maybe, if Queen of Lies didn't bother you, BoVD won't either...? Conversely, perhaps if the adventure wasn't your cup of tea, the BoVD won't be either?

Would not say that at all.

Y'see, the WotC code of conduct in the past was pretty conservative, and the authors pretty shy of it. In an editorial on d20 weekly, editor Dale Donovon says that with the BoVD, they decided to see how far they can push that.

The result of the BoVD (if some early reports and dragon 300 is to be taken as a sign) is that with the BoVD totally skips a middle ground where Queen of Lies is. The went from the relatively pristine and conservative WotC standards to something that had a few excessively gratuitous items (and if Monte is to be beleived, art.)

As bad as you might think QoL is, there is nothing in there that reminded me of Overfiend. Just RHPS.

 

[Voadam]

RHPS?

 

[Psion]

RHPS?

Rocky Horror Picture Show

 

[Erik Mona]

>>>
The most "vile" material in a published game product I have seen so far is in "Armies of the Abyss" written by Erik Mona for Green Ronin.
>>>

Which can be purchased at: http://www.greenronin.com/cgi-bin/product.cgi?prodid=1012

God bless America.

--Erik

 

[Gizzard]

Has anyone who's read the adventure wondered at the fact that they share a room?

Or that Egil is willing to part with what must be his life savings in order to find Lucius in Death in Freeport? And that he has a key to Lucius' apartment? And, at the beginning of Terror in Freeport he tells a story that involves him waking up in the middle of the night at Lucius'? "Oh, I must have nodded off." Uh-huh.

But, I think thats the thing thats different about "Book of Vile Darkness"; it boldly proclaims "Look at me! I am Evil! I am rated 'M' for Mature!" and therefore attracts attention from people who would normally just ignore it. I think if the Freeport modules had been called "Sodomy in Freeport!" you could create a similar uproar.

 

[Mark]

Re: Mature Themes all over the place

I remember reading about a heated discussion on Rivers of Blood for Living Greyhawk. That was a very mature themed adventure that most WOD or Kult players would have snickered at but DnD players were up in arms over it.

Um... This was called River of Blood, IIRC, (quite the hubbub) and was one of Mister Mona's creations, as well. Wasn't it, Erik?

 

[Psion]

The most "vile" material in a published game product I have seen so far is in "Armies of the Abyss" written by Erik Mona for Green Ronin.

I don't remember seeing ANY flak or controversy over this product.

I remember throwing a little flak over how dumb I thought phantasmal lover was.

Does that count?