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Expand the scope of mundane lore

So where is the dividing line on some of this stuff?

I think that if you can say, "It's like a normal item, only superlative" it's a good candidate for mundane lore. If you can't describe the item using that format, then it's probably magical.

For example,

It's like a normal rope, only lighter/stronger/thinner.
It's like a normal sword, only sharper/lighter/better balanced.

But "it's like a normal sword, only it's on fire" doesn't really match, and so that's magical.
 

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[MENTION=20187]GSHamster[/MENTION], I'll buy all that, too. But now you interest me in knowing where you would draw the line for something such as mundane herbal remedies, say, particularly where they have some folklore or even mythic capabilities that modern medicine currently disputes.

Is it ok for a skilled character to make a mundane minor healing potion out of betony and catnip? How about a more major potion, if slow acting? What are the limits of basil when it comes to reducing poison effects? What can you do with garlic for vampire repellant? (Of if you prefer, fantastical replacements for any of these herbs.)

BTW, I'm not trying to be a Socratic Method annoyance, here. I know where I stand on these issues in the particulars. I'm trying to understand where the particulars line up for lots of people, versus where they differ. :)
 

I just wish there was a better word than 'mundane' to be the antonym of magical. It just sounds so, y'know ... mundane. 'Natural', perhaps.

But, yes, I would like the field of things that doesn't flip physics the bird to be given more scope. Magic works best when it has something to contrast it. For similar reasons, I'd like to see normal animals return to the 5E Monster Manual, as they help highlight all the fantastic critters.
 

I definitely would like to see the following areas expanded significantly in D&D, not necessarily in the core but some good supplement could be dedicated to them:

- alchemy
- herbalism
- masterwork weaponry
- adventuring gear
- special materials
 

With the changes to skills, one would guess that crafting an item would be an appropriate ability check. If you have a skill, it might give you +2 to that check. Perhaps there is a skill focus that allows +4 to that check.

Why not allow 'magic' items to be crafted with the appropriate skill? It would incentivise taking background skills such as metalworking, and given the time needed to attempt to create an amazing sword, give clearer reason as to why there aren't a thousand +1 swords in every town. I'd like fire resistance to come from red dragon scales, lightning bows to be crafted from trees struck by lightning on a specific date, etc.
 

Definitely a question worth asking.

My inclination is to approach every situation and ask what tools a person with no magical ability might have at their disposal. That should almost always form the basis, and mundane improvement should show a clear sense of continuity (thematically and mechanically) with those most basic abilities. I think here I mean about the same thing as GHamster does with "superlative."

Magic, then, normally does one of two things:
1) Causes the ability to operate in a way that is essentially discontinuous with what is established. I'd emphasize this distinction with mechanics in many cases.
2) Operates in a way that is continuous with mundane abilities, but alters the tradeoffs in the fast, good, cheap (choose 2) spectrum. In many cases there would not be a need to emphasize the distinction with additional mechanics, since the different tradeoffs and the means required to achieve them will often do so implicitly.

The idea is to avoid making magic just the stuff that happens when mundane means no longer suffice, but to let both operate in conjunction. I'd use the two points above as a sort of touchstone, with a lexicon of common mechanics to help cue the player. Monte talked about "dice tricks" last week, and I think these can perfectly function in this role.

Here are a few examples.

1) Healing. The notion of magical healing as accelerated or aided natural healing seems natural to me. Therefore let mundane healing (at least of hit points) be good and cheap, and really integrate the heal check. Mundane healing might also be fast and cheap for things like first aid and traumatic injuries. Magic is then a tool which meets different needs, and it can build on top of the normal healing rules. Perhaps cure light wounds heals hit points equivalent to a night of rest (roughly the amount of time it would take for a "light wound" to go from having an impact to being something a person can basically fight past). It might even require a check, which would allow using a "magic skill" to achieve its basic function, but the heal skill to achieve what the healer could normally do in less time. In other words, an application of guideline 2. However, I'd not allow mundane healing to do things where the body itself has been destroyed (A healer might reasonably make a salve to return sight to the blind, but only as long as the eyes are intact, for example). Magic that achieves this more closely follows guideline 1, and perhaps should have some mechanical distinction as well.

2) Sneaking. Magic that just gives a bonus to sneak checks doesn't really do much for me. Perhaps the cloak of elvenkind (and similar magics that interact directly with abilities requiring mundane checks) causes enemies to roll 2d20 and use the lower check. Everyone with such a cloak is better at sneaking, but it prevents dedicated sneakers from stacking bonuses in such a way that they can make themselves immune to perception checks, etc. Using 2d20 as a cue could also help DMs trying to decide how to represent certain kinds of circumstantial modifiers to checks already being made. For example, creative use of ghost sound or other cantrips. Things like Rings of Invisibility break continuity with regular sneaking, and the fact that one simply cannot be seen is exactly the mechanical break necessary to represent it well.

Likewise, mundane uses of sneaking could have its own set of common mechanical tools. Things like skill tricks come to mind. Perhaps, for example, a skilled sneaker could force a target to reroll a check but lower the effect of his own sneaking check by a few points for the rest of the scene (or whatever). A skilled sneaker might eventually not only have a higher bonus, but would effectively have some "sneaking hp" that represents the ability to eke out of some tight situations. And again, this allows them to represent their superiority without making it possible to sneak past everyone due to a ridiculously inflated skill bonus. And perhaps a mundane skill trick for expert spotters is the chance to spot truly invisible creatures from very subtle details. Most DMs I think give their players a chance to "spot" invisible creatures from certain environmental clues (i.e. when it's snowing) but the skill trick might be to make such a thing something that is expected rather than bargained for for that PC.

3) Weapons. 5e has a golden opportunity to step back from +1 to +5 weapons as necessarily magical, and move toward mundane but excellent craftsmanship that lets skilled wielders get the most of their skill. The philosophy of many wuxia and wuxia-inspired movies toward weapons (e.g. Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon and Kill Bill) as powerful but not exactly supernatural is close to what I'd like to see, and reading the rest of the thread it's clear I'm not alone. Iconic things like flaming are easy, but perhaps there are both mundane and magical versions of an ability that gives a sword blinding speed. Or perhaps only swords that have the mundane "speed" property can actually be magically enhanced with the magical version, or maybe there is some synergy from having both. I admit I don't yet have a clear vision of how this might look.

I think the best dividing line is something like this: if we can imagine a mundane way to do something, than that's probably the way it is usually done. Different settings will have different sliding scales here. If we want D&D to cover a diverse set of fantasy subgenres, it won't hurt to make ways for many abilities to be either magical or mundane. I wouldn't want to make them entirely interchangeable, because when there are no distinctions in function or access even saying there is a distinction strikes me as meaningless. (I realize that is hardly a universal inclination, and I don't feel the need to get worked up about it.)
 
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That's good stuff, and knowing the why behind your explanation is good too. But I was driving more at specific examples, if you'd care to provide any? Say, in a 3E-like system, is there a point at which you would find non-magical accuracy or damage (+N swords) to be implausible, or would that depend on the rest of the system?
Attack and damage bonuses are hard to turn into objective terms. Thus, I can't justify why they can't be achieved without magic. 3e essentially decided that +5 was the general limit for weapon enhancement bonuses; I think that ought to be achievable either magically or nonmagically. Some other benefits are also reasonable, Keen, for instance. Energy damage, however, is not cool (except for actual flaming arrows and the like).

For example, in 4e (and I believe in some late 3e supplements and maybe in PF), barbarians can add energy damage to attacks, which is completely over the line and would never be allowed in my game. Making fire (let alone cold) appear without actually lighting a fire. To be fair, 4e created this "primal power source" and put the barbarian on it, which I don't really buy.

For an example of another line, I have no problem with nonmagical fast healing of nonlethal damage, but lethal damage shouldn't be healed without magic or actual rest. So the 3e PHBII combat form feat that granted fast healing was completely inappropriate, until I instituted a vp/wp system, which made it applicable to vp only.

There are lines to be drawn in many different game mechanics; these are just my takes.
 

In my opinion I would build dividing lines between magic/mundane weapons like this:

say the most bonus ANY weapon can ever achieve is +6:
Then a mundane weapon could be from +1 to +3, based on "it's a fine weapon; it was forged by a master weaponsmith; it is the finest blade a mortal can construct".

Magic would also exist at +2 to +6 - from the basic "dwarf-made; special materials; sorcery was involved; the gods breathed upon it".

My "reasons" are spurious - certainly "special materials" could reflect non-magical origin, and so could "dwarf-made". Whereas "master weaponsmith" might have a magic forge. That's up to the DM. But the mechanics would need to be slightly different; non-magic weapons can't penetrate DR, for example, but magic weapons could fail under other conditions such as non-magic zones.

Healing I think should be similar;
The CLW/CMW/CSW spell chain is a good example - I think mundane first aid and skill application should match the least rank of magical healing; magic is simply faster and simpler (no heal check involved). CMW is achievable with nonmagic, but it requires "special herbs" that might be of some magic origin - ie athelas. But the highest rate of healing, the true cures and regenerations and "back from the brink of death in an instant" healing should be magical only. Or should require weeks or months of mundane rest. Get pneumonia - if you use magic, you're cured in 24 hours and no repercussions - if you use mundane skill, you're very sick for a week or more, and could die, and you'll be "out of circulation" for several months as your lungs heal.

As far as mundane items go, I really like the "this is made of unusual materials and thus has some unusual properties" but isn't magic. The superlight spidersilk rope; the beetle-organ glowsticks; cloaks of elven weave that give hide bonuses (but never as much as a magic spell could).

I'm not SO worried about a "clear rules break" between mundane and magic; I can handle that line as a DM. But it wouldn't hurt to incorporate it where possible.
 

By the way, the 4e splatbook, "Martial Power 2", provided martial practices, which were essentially non-magical rituals for fighters, rogues, and such. It included such things as disguise kits, making gear, and producing essentially magical weapons.
 

Why not allow 'magic' items to be crafted with the appropriate skill? It would incentivise taking background skills such as metalworking, and given the time needed to attempt to create an amazing sword, give clearer reason as to why there aren't a thousand +1 swords in every town. I'd like fire resistance to come from red dragon scales, lightning bows to be crafted from trees struck by lightning on a specific date, etc.

I'd be even more interested in this, if the really useful crafting is risky--part of an adventure itself, dangerous to do inherently, only possible in certain special, dangerous locations, etc.

I think this touches on the points Ainamacar made, that some of the more interesting aspects of mundane equipment occur where they overlap with magic. Few mind mundane spikes and 10 foot poles. Not many of us would object to keeping "brilliant energy" magical. It is when we get into that middle stuff that it becomes more of an issue.

Let's take Ahnehnois' lines on mundane healing. I'd be ok with where he has the lines, but also ok, to continue his example, if some mundane healing herbs were allowed to radically decrease the downtime from disease--as long as magic is still clearly faster. That is, if pneumonia knocks you out for several months with nothing but a modest heal skill check to help, and magic gets you back on your feet overnight, I'm fine with skilled use of herbalism having you mostly back in two or three week and rapidly healing thereafter. But if the magic takes weeks instead of months, that doesn't leave much room for the herbs.

Of course, in the overlap you can also have things like weak magic that works more or less like the herbs--perhaps the cost being that it takes a skilled magical healer out of circulation for the same time frame, because they have to keep renewing the magic, but you don't have to find and process the herbs. Those kinds of trades are interesting to me if they happen in game, and not as mere flavor of, "Oh, my character casts CLW, but in the game I pour this potion I made down your throat, because I'm a herbalist."

I begin to think that I'm more interested in having the overlap than in particulars of where it occurs. :)
 

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