Expanded ECL rules!

[Upper_Krust]

Hello again mate!

All I know, really, is that there needs to be five categories, because there are five "levels of power" within the categories of creatures.

Actually, at worst I would say there are four categories.

Acknowledging a difference of less than 10% is insanely pedantic and technically futile.

The 1/5 one does seem a bit low, at least sometimes, but this all must be balanced out with the special abilities.

Perhaps this:

3/4 (75%)
3/5 (60%)
3/6 (50%)
3/7 (42%)
3/8 (37%)

Divide HD by the number on right, then multiply the result by the number on the left. That sound better?

Again, even if the above were more accurate, the differences are firstly negligable and secondly 'best guesses' anyway. So really your just inflicting some calculator confusion unnecessarily.

 

[Anubis]

Hello again mate!

Actually, at worst I would say there are four categories.

Acknowledging a difference of less than 10% is insanely pedantic and technically futile.

I'll give you this one, if only because there is only a single creature type in the fourth tier, that being Beasts. So yeah, maybe that fifth tier is unnecesary. I concede this point.

Again, even if the above were more accurate, the differences are firstly negligable and secondly 'best guesses' anyway. So really your just inflicting some calculator confusion unnecessarily.

Hell, I'll even concede this point. Nothing wrong with your percentages after all.

The point I will NOT concede, however, are your groupings.

Let's make a compromise that I believe settles the issue:

+3 ECL/4 Hit Dice (75%) for Dragons and Outsiders
+1 ECL/2 Hit Dice (50%) for Magical Beasts, Monstrous Humanoids, Shapechangers
+1 ECL/3 (33%) Hit Dice for Aberrations, Elementals, Fey, Giant, Humanoids, Undead (except for Skeletons and Zombies)
+1 ECL/4 (25%) Hit Dice for Animals, Beasts, Constructs, Oozes, Plants, Undead (Skeletons and Zombies), Vermin

 

[Knight Otu]

He, if someone feels like it, he could go here and think about the ECL adjustment for my planar ruler template.

I would have argued that there should only be three "categories" of moster hit dice. I had the 1/3 and 1/4 group of Anubis grouped together. But I see why animated objects and mindless undead should be a seperate group.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi all!

I tested a number of new theories last night; I'll post the results tomorrow (still a bit of work to do).

 

[Upper_Krust]

Just to fan the flames...some of the ideas I am testing include:

+1 ECL/2 Hit Dice for Dragons; Outsiders; Magical Beasts, Monstrous Humanoids, Shapechangers

+1 ECL/3 Hit Dice for Aberrations, Elementals, Fey, Giant, Humanoids.

+1 ECL/4 Hit Dice for Animals, Beasts, Constructs, Oozes, Plants, Undead, Vermin.

+1 ECL/5 Hit Dice for Skeletons, Zombies.

Integrated Classes dropped to +3/4 ECL

Spell Resistance: +1/2 per 5 points of SR above 10.

Damage Reduction: +1/2 per 5/+1 (weapon needed to hit).

Fast Healing & Regeneration: +1/2 per 5 points.

Size Factors added as standard.

Hardness/Damage Reduction: +1/2 per 5/- points

 

[CRGreathouse]

In general, linear progression of abilities onto ECLs is a bad idea, because ECLs are quadratic or exponential in power.

Spell Resistance: +1/2 per 5 points of SR above 10.

A level 4 character with SR 15 (50%) is ECL +1/2, but a level 50 character with the same % of protection, not including SP, GSP, and ESP, is ECL > +11?

Damage Reduction: +1/2 per 5/+1 (weapon needed to hit).

[...]

Hardness/Damage Reduction: +1/2 per 5/- points

How do these two work together? How much is DR 5/+1, 30/+7, and 10/-?

In any case, DR 5/+1 is not worth as much at level 50 as on level 1.

Fast Healing & Regeneration: +1/2 per 5 points.

Same as above: A level 2 character with Fast Healing 5 is incredibly strong, but on level 50 that's nothing.

 

[Anubis]

My revised system took care of the problem with a linear modifier system, although it wasn't accurate enough.

I think most of it would just have to be DM discretion, especially since some abilities work better with some than others. Damage reduction 50/+2 works really well with Fast Healing and Regenration, but Hardness 10 would do nothing for it.

And so on and so forth.

Honestly, I want to finish the hit Dice modifiers before moving on to special abilities and such.

Just on a side note, I works out the folloowing for sizes and ability scores.

+1 ECL per 10 bonus points for Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution, using the DMG method of finding ability score bonuses (subtract ALL scores gained from size before doing this)
+1 ECL per 20 bonus points for Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma (the DMG method again... these three are only half as valuable as the first three)
+1 ECL per size category over Medium

For penalties and size decreases, simple reverse the numbers.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi CRGreathouse mate!

In general, linear progression of abilities onto ECLs is a bad idea, because ECLs are quadratic or exponential in power.

I'm not totally convinced yet one way or the other (if its good or bad).

A level 4 character with SR 15 (50%) is ECL +1/2, but a level 50 character with the same % of protection, not including SP, GSP, and ESP, is ECL > +11?

That pretty much assumes that everyone you meet is the same level/CR as you.

How do these two work together? How much is DR 5/+1, 30/+7, and 10/-?

Personally I prefer using the term Hardness to Damage Reduction /-

DR 5/+1 = +0.5 ECL

DR 35/+7 = +3.5 ECL

Hardness 10/- = +1 ECL

In any case, DR 5/+1 is not worth as much at level 50 as on level 1.

On the contrary its worth exactly the same, it just doesn't have the same impact on challenge rating...

Same as above: A level 2 character with Fast Healing 5 is incredibly strong, but on level 50 that's nothing.

...A level 2 character with FH 5 is ECL 2.5/CR 2.5

A 50th-level character with FH 5 is ECL 50.5/CR 32

Obviously the Fast Healing has more impact on the CR of the 2nd-level character; but the powers can still be rated the same with regards ECL.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Anubis mate!

Honestly, I want to finish the hit Dice modifiers before moving on to special abilities and such.

I definately think +1/2 for the top rung seems to work best.

I'm still checking Constructs and Undead (both on 1/4 perhaps).

Just on a side note, I works out the folloowing for sizes and ability scores.

+1 ECL per 10 bonus points for Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution, using the DMG method of finding ability score bonuses (subtract ALL scores gained from size before doing this)
+1 ECL per 20 bonus points for Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma (the DMG method again... these three are only half as valuable as the first three)
+1 ECL per size category over Medium

For penalties and size decreases, simple reverse the numbers.

I agree with the above (under my revised system). Though splitting the ability scores seems a bit pedantic; though probably necessary.

 

[Anubis]

I respectfully disagree. I think +3/4 HD should be the top rung, with only dragons and outsiders inhabiting that rung. These two types are clearly far above the rest in power, due to the fighter BAB, having all three goods saves, loads of skill points, and plenty of good feats on top of that. These two are almost as good per hit die as normal characters with levels are.