Experience rewards for greatly mixed party levels

[Kalendraf]

In all my 3e DM'ing situations prior to last night, I'd had a very easy time using the chart on pg 166 of the DMG for awarding experience. Once I got the hang of it, it's been rather easy to compute the experience for the groups I DM'ed for as they progressed from 1st level on up.

However, last night I was presented with a rather odd situation which seems to point out a fundamental flaw here. Let me explain the situation. The party began Siege of Durgam's Folly and was performing some caravan guard duty. During the session, they were attacked by a Roc. They managed to defeat the huge bird and only lost 1 wagon and 1 guard across the entire battle. So there were 27 survivors which included the party (levels 8,8,8,8 and 7) and the guards (1 at level 4, 2 at level 2 and 19 at level 1).

My 1st instinct was to take the party's level (8th) and index the Roc's CR9 entry finding 3600 exp and then divide by 27, resulting in 133 exp per character.

But then one of the players pointed out that the average level of this party is much lower than 8th, so after some quick level totalling and dividing by 27, the avg party level was found to be about 2.44. That meant that the Roc's experience was 7200 instead of the 3600 it had been. So the exp per character was essentially doubled.

After some more thinking about this, I decided to investigate some other situations, and I think I've found a bug in the table (or at least in the fact that pg 165 suggest using the average party level). Consider the following:

A) An 11th level character defeats a CR10 monster. The award is 2200exp.

B) A 1st level and 11th level character (avg level = 6) team up to defeat the same CR10 monster. The award is 7200 divided between them, or 3600 exp each.

This doesn't make sense. Situation A is harder for the 11th level character since he must singlehandedly defeat the enemy. Situation B is easier as there is now another character to help flank, and draw attacks as well as deal damage. Yet by following the rules on pg 165 and 166, situation B earns more experience for the character. This appears to be a bug in the exp calculation.

My suggestion for fixing this is to instead do the following:

1. Find the EFFECTIVE party level by grouping lower level characters into groups on par with the highest level characters.
2. Calculate exp as usual.
3. Divide up exp between characters/groups. Then divide exp in the groups based on levels.

Here's an example. The mixed group from last night was effectively an 8th level party broken up as follows:
Character #1 - 8th level
Character #2 - 8th level
Character #3 - 8th level
Character #4 - 8th level
Character #5 - 7th level
Guard Group #1 (7 level 1 guards, 1 level 2) - 9 levels worth
Guard Group #2 (7 level 1 guards, 1 level 2) - 9 levels worth
Guard Group #3 (5 level 1 guards, 1 level 4) - 9 levels worth
Avg = 8th level

This resulted in 8 groups dividing the 3600 exp. The result after dividing it out was as follows:
Each Character - 450 exp
Each level 1 guard - 50 exp
Each level 2 guard - 100 exp
4th level guard - 200 exp

This makes sense given the fact that the party dealt a majority of the damage, and the guards did very little besides fire a few crossbow bolts (most of which missed). The higher level guards were working to break the lower guards out of their scared state and each scored a few hits on the Roc as well. I'm pretty comfortable with the result that I came up with. Both the 133 exp and 266 exp values for the party were just too low of a reward for this type of situation, and likewise too rich for the low-level guards.

Has anyone else encounter a mixed party level situation where they have had to do this? That example with the 1st and 11th level character seems to indicate that the formula needs some DM-intervention in the calculation for wide level ranges.

 

[HEL Pit Fiend]

In determining the party level, I would ONLY consider the PCs and adjust the XP award according to a difficulty adjustment. In the DMG "Significantly less difficult" fits encounter and the award would be x2/3 XP (pg 167, DMG) award:

Hence, 3,600 total award x2/3 adjustment = 2,400
per character that is about 480 XP, about the same as what you came up with at 450 XP.

 

[Kalendraf]

What about the bizarre situation where you actually have the situation of a 1st and 11th level character in the party? Is the avg party level 6th? How do you handle that. Obviously, it's not common to run into this wide level gap situation, but it can happen, especially with a ton of level drains or something similar.

 

[Celebrim]

Whenever you have more than 4 characters, the effective party level _encreases_ not decreases. Even if the average is lower than the highest member of the party, the effective level (read ability) of the party is higher so the ammount of experience goes DOWN and not up.

This is a rough and tumble estimate, but I'd do the following:

16 level 1's is roughly equivalent to a party of 4 level 3's (IMO).
2 level 2's are roughly equivalent to a single level 4...
So the two level 2's and the level 4 are roughly equivalent to 2 level 4's.
Four level 3's, 3 level 1's, and 2 level 4's are roughly equivelent (IMO) to a level 8 or 9, so essentially the party is equivalent to 6 level 8's.

I figure 6 level 8's are effectively 4 level 9's so I'd set the effective party level as 9 and figure experience (from a CR9 encounter) from there.

Then I'd total the levels and give each player shares of experience based on thier level. For instance, the total here is 19+4+4+7+8+8+8+8=68, so the 1st level characters would get 1/68th share of the experience (or 40 xp). The 8th level characters would get 318 xp. This is I think fair for a fight in which the players were never really in much danger, had an overwhelming advantage in numbers against a foe with relatively low AC, and did not have to expend many resources.

 

[Sir Hawkeye]

In theory,

"Average level" = party CR -4

Four lvl 1 = CR 5 = Avg Level 1

8th+6th+6th= CR 10 = Avg Level 6

This actually finds the party's approximate equal that is composed of 4 equal level characters.

1 11t = CR 11 = Avg Party level 7
11th + 1st = CR 11+1/32 = Avg Party Level 7

the 11th gets 50% as much xp with assistance. Although actually I'd just say the 1st is meaningless and give full normal xp to the 11th.

 

[KarinsDad]

Here's an example. The mixed group from last night was effectively an 8th level party broken up as follows:
Character #1 - 8th level
Character #2 - 8th level
Character #3 - 8th level
Character #4 - 8th level
Character #5 - 7th level
Guard Group #1 (7 level 1 guards, 1 level 2) - 9 levels worth
Guard Group #2 (7 level 1 guards, 1 level 2) - 9 levels worth
Guard Group #3 (5 level 1 guards, 1 level 4) - 9 levels worth
Avg = 8th level

This resulted in 8 groups dividing the 3600 exp. The result after dividing it out was as follows:
Each Character - 450 exp
Each level 1 guard - 50 exp
Each level 2 guard - 100 exp
4th level guard - 200 exp

Here is how I do it for close level groups:

Calculate the experience on the chart for each character for their level as if they fought the creature by themselves. Divide it by the number of characters participating.

This gives slightly higher experience to the lower level characters who who have higher level characters helping them as opposed to same level characters, the same amount of experience to the higher level characters who had lower level characters helping them as opposed to same level characters.

Yes, I know that this is not totally fair, but it is extremely fast. And, it has the advantage of slowly bringing lower level party members up in experience. Typically not enough for them to outright catch up, but enough for them to not be miles behind forever.

However, this falls apart quickly in your example above.

There, you probably should calculate median character level via encounter level as opposed to average character level, getting each group as close as possible to EL 8 or average party level

19 first level guards = EL 9

2 second level guards = EL 4
1 fourth level guard = EL 4 OR

2 second level guards and 1 fourth level guard = EL 6

What this does is give you 7 equivalent characters:

19 first level guards = EL 9
2 second level guards and 1 fourth level guard = EL 6
8th level = EL 8
8th level = EL 8
8th level = EL 8
8th level = EL 8
7th level = EL 7

What this does is still give you an average party level of 8, but only 7 "party members" with entire groups of lower level NPCs being equivalent to one character of average party level.

Each Character - 514 exp
Each level 1 guard - 27 exp (514 / 19)
Each level 2 guard - 128 exp (514 * 2 / 8 levels in the EL 6 group)
4th level guard - 257 exp (514 * 4 / 8 levels in the EL 6 group)


It’s not perfect, but it doesn’t give boatload of experience to the low level guys.

It is also similar to what you did, but was not based on total level which is very misleading. 19 first level characters might be an EL 9 encounter, but 9 of them is not. And, of course, you can split it up in different ways. One suggestion is to never make an EL group higher than average party level. So, it would become:

10 first level guards = EL 7
9 first level guards = EL 7
2 second level guards and 1 fourth level guard = EL 6
8th level = EL 8
8th level = EL 8
8th level = EL 8
8th level = EL 8
7th level = EL 7

You would then be dividing by 8 groups instead of 7. But, I am a little generous to the PCs since the lower level NPCs really do not help that much and can be bunched together.

 

[the Jester]

I prefer the variant system in the FRCS book. You figure each character's xp individually according to the CR chart for their level divided by the number of party members. I've found it's great for helping to even out party levels, too; it does a good job of representing the different amount of learning the different level characters get out of the same encounter.

 

[Thanee]

Yep, just use the FRCS system.

Everyone gets XP based on his own level instead of average party level.

Works out exactly the same as the standard system, with the sole exception, that you insert the individual character level instead of the average party level and calculate XP for every character individually (obviously you only need to do it once for characters of the same level).

Don't forget to divide through the number of party members, tho, which still applies, of course!

Bye
Thanee

 

[Plane Sailing]

I remember when this question was first raised in the very early days of 3e. Some people nicknamed it the "squire syndrome", as it explained why knights took squires around with them... to boost their own experience, of course!

Like others here, I use the FRCS system; no freebie experience for the high level guys, and the lower level guys gradually start to catch up.

Cheers

 

[KarinsDad]

I prefer the variant system in the FRCS book. You figure each character's xp individually according to the CR chart for their level divided by the number of party members. I've found it's great for helping to even out party levels, too; it does a good job of representing the different amount of learning the different level characters get out of the same encounter.

Well, it's nice to know that the system I've used since 3E first came out was actually published somewhere.

But, it's terrible for this example since the 5 main characters probably did the lion share of the work and are getting no experience for it, whereas the low level character probably did next to nothing and are getting a boatload:

Character #1 - 8th level 133
Character #2 - 8th level 133
Character #3 - 8th level 133
Character #4 - 8th level 133
Character #5 - 7th level 156
19 level 1 guards 267 each
2 level 2 guards 267 each
1 level 4 guard 237

The slight difference that this does when character levels are close is fine. But here, it's a total mess. Ditto for the 1st level and 11th level case same encounter:

11th level 825
1st level 3600