Experimental New Core Class: the Battle Dancer

[Quip]

Just a little something I've been working on, trying to fill a niche that isn't fully matched by existing classes or multiclassing. Well not to *my* satisfaction anyways. Basically just a dextrous fighter-type, taking a bit of the fighter and more of the rogue. Not much in the way of unique abilities, though. Let me know what you think.



New Core Class:
Battle Dancer


Hit die: d8

Skills: Balance (Dex), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Hide (Dex), Jump (Str), Move Silently (Dex), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Tumble (Dex)

Skill points: 2/level

Weapon and Armor proficiences: All simple and martial weapons, light armor and shields.
BAB progression: As fighter
Good saves: Fort, Ref

Level/Special

1 Dual Wield
2 Evasion
3 Uncanny Dodge (Dex to AC)
4 Battle Dance (+1 AC)
5
6 Uncanny Dodge (can't be flanked), Increased Speed
7
8 Battle Dance (+2)
9
10 Special Abilty
11 Uncanny Dodge (+1 vs traps)
12 Battle Dance (+3)
13 Special Abilty
14 Uncanny Dodge (+2 vs traps)
15
16 Battle Dance (+4), Special Abilty
17 Uncanny Dodge (+3 vs traps)
18
19 Special Abilty
20 Battle Dance (+5), Uncanny Dodge (+4 vs traps)



Dual Wield: As the ranger ability, including the restiction to light armors. However, it applies as equally well to double weapon.
(Side note: my paticular alt ranger no longer has this, but has extra favored enemies at levels 2 and 3. But I know you dont care about yet *another* alt ranger. )

Evasion: Same as rogue ability

Uncanny dodge: Same as rogue ability

Battle Dance: When wearing light armor or no armor, the battle dancer gains a dodge bonus to AC equal to this value. This bonus is lost whenever she would lose her dex bonus to ac.

Increased Speed: When wearing light armor or no armor the battle dancers base speed increases. Treat the battle dancer as a monk of one half her class level to determine base speed. If the battle dancer also has monk levels these levels may stack, but only when she wears no armor.

Special Ability: As rogue, but only the following abilities: Defensive Roll, Improved Evasion, or any Feat.



Like I said, nothing special here, just splicing together class abilities. I like minor variant classes like this, it reduces the need for shoehorning multiclassed characters into a character concept. This one I made for two reasons: there wasn't a single core class with both good fort and reflex, and I wanted the lightly armored two weapon lovers to not need to be rangers as well.

Skills are good but skill points are low, they spend more time spinning around than studying I guess. They can use shields but almost never more than a buckler or small shield, especially if they perfer to dual wield. Of course they can just use spiked shields or somesuch.



I already mentioned my ranger variant, but heres a couple more you may find of interest:

PC Worthy Expert: Added a Skill Bonus (+1 to any class skill) at 2nd and every 4 after, as well as a skill based feat (skill focus, awareness and the like) at 4th and every 4 after. If they have disable device as a class skill they can disarm traps as a rogue, and if they have search too they can find them as well. For their 12th level or higher feat they can opt for skill mastery instead, as a rogue.

Paladin: Optional swapping of mount for a Divine Weapon, starts off as a +1 blessed weapon that acts as a phylactery of faithfulness and can be improved like a samurai's blade. Instead of burning expensive insense you donate to your church and/or cause and spend an equal amount of time praying. Also I allow slight changes to powers depending on patron diety.


Well there you go, enjoy and comment!

*Throws post to the forum wolves*

 

[hong]

Ooh, I get to pimp my martial artist again:

http://www.zipworld.com.au/~hong/dnd/martialartist.htm
http://www.zipworld.com.au/~hong/dnd/ma_feats.htm

Basically what you've described is a "fighter-lite", which is similar to how my MA would work in practice.

 

[Quip]

Hey, I'm pimping here, find yer own street!

That said, you've got pretty nice stuff there, I can see you put lots of work into those feats too, though some have rather unusual mechanics. So forgive me whilst I crotique a bit.

Methinks that class is a little too good with the number of feats available. I really dont see what a fighter has to lose by multiclassing into it, as long as hes getting feats that he would normally get. If he wanted, for example, Doge Mobility and Spring Attack he just takes four levels of martial artist, loses an average of four HP, gains better saves, uncanny dodge, better skills, and the option of running around without armor. But he probably wouldn't. Its a good deal better than the fighter and worse, much stronger than my battle dancer.

I suggest toning down the number feats a bit, one per every three or four levels. Perhaps find another way to introduce the quasi-monk like abilities. My battle dancer has 1/2 monk level speed, you may want to give your class that progression in unarmed damage. And perhaps reinforce the use of no armor a bit more, as it is a martial artist can run around in plate with little penalty, if the right feats are chosen. Simply limiting the bonus feats so they may only be used when unarmored should do the trick.

Now, back to my class pimping.

 

[trentonjoe]

Comparing it to a fighter you would lose:

hit points
tons of feats
medium and heavy armor
wepon specialization


YOu get:

good relex saves
Uncanny dodge and evasion
2 wepon fighting
AC bonus
Thief special ability
Increase in speed

I think this is a little strong. I would remove fort as a good save and slow down the Uncanny dodge advancement ( maybe every 5 levels as opposed to 3?). I would remove the trap bonus as well, that doesn't seem to fit, she can't remove traps can she?
Maybe replace it with alertness or a dangersense ability?

Just some idea, take what you want and ignore the rest.

 

[DreamChaser]

Basically just a dextrous fighter-type, taking a bit of the fighter and more of the rogue. Not much in the way of unique abilities, though. Let me know what you think.

What you're describing here is a prestige class; you should cut it back to 10 levels and make it that. A dexterous fighter could be done with Expertise, Mobility, Combat Reflexes, Weapon Finesse, etc. New dex related feats would be good too.

What you have here is a VERY specific nitch type of character. IMO, core classes should be more general (which is why paladin and barbarian are not core classes in my game).

Just my thoughts.

DC

 

[Quip]

I think you should add a few more things to what I lose vs the fighter class: tons of feats, tons of feats, tons of feats, and tons of feats.
This class isn't strong in the offensive area at all, apart from the dual wielding and good BAB. I wanted him to give good reflex and fort simply because nothng else fills that niche. As far as uncanny dodge, well if the barbarian can dodge traps its sounds good for this class too. The rogue specials is sort of misleading, theres only two abilities they get and its not most of the strong stuff.


As to why this isn't a prestige class... well theres a lot to that.
WARNING: rant ahead!

You see, I love and hate prestige classes. When a fighter specializes in a weapon or style, when a spellcaster focuses on an element or school, thats perfect for a prestige class. When a multiclass character uses the abilities of both classes in new and synergistic ways, thats a great pretige class. But when a prestige class tires to patch up a gap in character concept, to do nothing but make a valid but suboptimal character design just manage to work, I hate it.

If the battle dancer where a prestige class, its requirements would look something like this:
Fighter feats 1, 2, and 3
Evasion
Skill ranks X, Y, and Z
Ambidexterity and two weapon fighting.

What does that do? Makes a Fighter/Ranger/Rogue or /Monk. Thats a character with track, lower bab, and sneak attack or unarmed strike and stunning fist. What if you just dont want those things? If you have sneak attack you keep looking to flank, looks to surprise. If you have track either you use it badly (low levels of Wilderneess lore) or just let it go to waste. As a monk you have be lawful, or change your alighnment. When all you want to do is hit things and not get hit, with a poorer bab then the fighter, even by one point, doesn't really seem fair.

Or what if you just cant justify such a range of classes? You trained in a monastary between the woods and the city and had a job as a mercanary? Its clunky, ridiculous, and reeks of metagaming.

The uncanny dodge between the few possible rogue levels and whatever the prestige class would give is no protection against a
rogue of equal or even near your level. Ever.

Of course I could just leave out those requirements that require other classes, but thats worse! Any fighter with enough feats gets in, without evasion in lower levels either I leave that out, give them regular evasion, or just jump to improved evasion. He's slow and and sucks at reflex saves anyways, and will continue to do so despite the progression of the PrC. Skills might eventually catch up, but its too little to late to really be useful for most of your characters career.
</rant>



Whew, anyways that how I feel about that. I think that theres lots of room for more core classes... or rather for variant core classes. The battle dancer is meant to fill a game between classes, especially with my house rules in place. But its really nothing but a variant rogue.

Whenever theres a character concept which doesn't fit either a single class, or a multiclass, I belive variant classes are the way to go. The dmg has a section about making these, a fully suggested and endorsed kind of house rule. I dont see them around much, I'd like to see them used, and shared, more often.


Well enough about that.

Anyone have a good idea for some special abilities I can give this class? I've kind been coming up dry with approriate stuff, my mind keeps wandering to the black magics I'll be posting next.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

I think you should add a few more things to what I lose vs the fighter class: tons of feats, tons of feats, tons of feats, and tons of feats.
This class isn't strong in the offensive area at all, apart from the dual wielding and good BAB. I wanted him to give good reflex and fort simply because nothng else fills that niche. As far as uncanny dodge, well if the barbarian can dodge traps its sounds good for this class too. The rogue specials is sort of misleading, theres only two abilities they get and its not most of the strong stuff.

Over the course of 20 levels, the Fighter gets 11 bonus feats. This class gets the equivalent of 14 "feats". Evasion, Improved Evasion, Increased Speed and some of the Uncanny Dodge effects are fabulous feats, however.

For having d8 instead of d10 and losing the heavier armor, you gain a good Reflex Save, ~4 extra feats (spread out) and some nice class skills.

I think this class is overpowered relative to the core classes. What do you mean by "isn't strong in the offensive area"? BAB, martial weapons, and decent HPs is all Rangers and Paladins have to work with.

It is a nice concept, borrowing some of the good points that blend well in the Fighter, Rogue, Ranger and make a finesse melee class. I think you should knock the BAB down to a Rogue progression and it won't make such an obvious choice for multiclass minmaxing. This class has some attractive defensive features so bringing the offense down a notch seems fair.

 

[DreamChaser]

If the battle dancer where a prestige class, its requirements would look something like this:
Fighter feats 1, 2, and 3
Evasion
Skill ranks X, Y, and Z
Ambidexterity and two weapon fighting.

there is no reason that these would have to be the requirements. They could be:

Expertise (a fighter bonus feat), Ambidexterity (a fighter bonus feat), Two Weapon Fighting (a fighter bonus feat), Dodge (a fighter bonus feat) Mobility (a fighter bonus feat) [these five feats can be gained by 4th level by any fighter and insure that he has a dex of at least 15]

3 ranks Perform (Dance), 3 ranks in Tumble [both are cross class for a fighter so he'd have to wait until 4th level]

THE CLASS:
Hit die: d8

Skills: Balance (Dex), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Hide (Dex), Jump (Str), Move Silently (Dex), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Tumble (Dex)

Skill points: 2/level

Weapon and Armor proficiences: All simple and martial weapons, light armor and shields.

BAB progression: As fighter

Good saves: Fort, Ref

1 Battle Dance (+1 AC), Evasion
2 Bonus Feat, Uncanny Dodge (Dex to AC)
3 Battle Dance (+2)
4 Increased Speed, Special Ability
5 Battle Dance (+3), Uncanny Dodge (can't be flanked)
6 Bonus Feat
7 Battle Dance (+4)
8 Special Ability, Uncanny Dodge (+1 vs traps)
9 Battle Dance (+5)
10 Bonus Feat, [some culminating ability]


Ten levels of this plus the fighter levels would make for a quick and exciting fighter without needing a new core class to muddy the waters.

This class is not more powerful than a fighter, just more specialized so the low level of entry (5th level could be the first BD level) does not unbalance it.

Just my thoughts.
DC

 

[Quip]

Doh, guess I just wanted too much at once eh? Very good stuff from the both of you there, thanks.

When you want to make something work too bad, it always ends up screwy. Lets break this down into my two main goals, yes?

First, I wanted a rogue that trades in skills and sneak attack for better combat ability, and inherits the dual wielding that the ranger lost.

Second, I wanted a dexterous light armor fighter that gains hightened movement and bonuses to AC.


Reflecting on this, I have decided to make both a variant class, and a prestige. Is this too much? Just right? Am I insane? I'll let you decide!


Note: variant classes replace a given core class for a character. You can not multiclass as two different variants of the same class, just as you can not take two types of specialist wizard.

Double Note: variant classes are supposed to be rather dull, and be basically a ripoff of the base class. Thats the point.

Triple Note: Since I'm going all the way to make a prestige class, I tihnk I'll intigrate it with the double weapon specialist idea that been bouncing around in my head for a while.

Quadruple Note: I'm going to try and make a ranger variant that uses the fort/ref save combo. Probably call it a scout or something. Probably been done before too. I'm not going to bother posting a ranger variant though.



Variant Rogue: The Swashbuckler

HD: d6

BAB as fighter

Good saves: Reflex

Skills: As rogue, minus decipher script, disable device, open lock, and use magic device

Skill points: 4/level

Weapons/Armor: as rogue, plus can use a buckler.

1 Dual Wield
2 Evasion
3 Uncanny Dodge (Dex bonus to AC)
4
5
6 Uncanny Dodge (Can't be flanked)
7
8
9
10 Special Ability
11 Uncanny Dodge (+1 vs traps)
12
13 Special Ability
14 Uncanny Dodge (+2 vs traps)
15
16 Special Ability
17 Uncanny Dodge (+3 vs traps)
18
19 Special Ability
20 Uncanny Dodge (+4 vs traps)


Special Abilities: As rogue, but limited to the following: Defensive roll, Improved Evasion, Skill Mastery, or any feat.




Prestige Class: Battle Dancer


Requirements
BAB 9+
Feats: Ambidexterity, Two Weapon Fighting, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Weapon Focus (Any double weapon)
Skills: Balance, Perform (Dance), and Tumble ranks 12+

Hit die: d8

Skills: Balance (Dex), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Hide (Dex), Jump (Str), Move Silently (Dex), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Tumble (Dex)
Skill points: 2/level

Weapon and Armor proficiences: All simple and martial weapons, all double weapons and light armor.

BAB progression: As fighter

Good saves: Ref

1 Battle Dance (+1)
2 Dance of the Eagle
3 Battle Dance (+2)
4 Base Speed +10
5 Battle Dance (+3)
6 Dance of the Tiger
7 Battle Dance (+4)
8 Base Speed +10
9 Battle Dance (+5)
10 Dance of the Dragon


Battle Dance: When wearing light armor or no armor, the battle dancer gains a dodge bonus to AC equal to this value. This bonus is lost whenever she would lose her dex bonus to ac. Also, all other class features only function in light armor or no armor.

Dance of the Eagle
You can use your deterity modifier rather than your strength modifier to attack rolls with all double weapons.

Base Speed
Your base speed increase by +10 at 4th and 8th levels.

Dance of the Tiger
You may make attack with both ends of a double weapon during a charge action.

Dance of the Dragon
You may make attack with both ends of a double weapon during a standard action.



Ok then people, tell me what I screwed up this time.