Expertise justification?

[Nail]

For all 5 PCs to have a +1 weapon ... "by level 2" then all 4 magic items handed out at 1st level.... have to be weapons.

Which is why "much depends on how treasure is handed out", as I've said a few times. (I think I even snuck in a YMMV too.) Like you, I want treasure parcels to "just work", without specifying item type. (I'm already pretty leary of this 4e "wish list" concept.)

At what level everyone gains a "+1" widget (weapon, armor, amulet) is the least constrained end. As PCs level, I think it's likely (but not certain) that everyone has +2 widgets by level 6, +3 widgets by level 11.... But if it's later than that, then the math hole is even more pronounced. Are you claiming gaining +1 widgets by all PCs happens later? That would be an interesting data point, given how closely you are following (thank you, BTW!!) the treasure parcel system.

...and that would show the math hole even better.

should that 5th player just sit out during combat twiddling his thumbs until he gets his +1 weapon with the first treasure trove at 2nd level because he's not as effective without that extra 5% bonus?

A little bit of reductio ad absurdum going on here. <chuckle> As I've said, the math hole is just +1 in the Heroic Tier. Small, but present.

As I'm sure you are aware, PCs have many trade-offs. If you have a low primary stat, you'd better find another way to improve your chances to hit. Tactically seeking CA, frex. No matter how you design your PC, the designers seem to think that having a (base) 60% chance to hit is fun. I agree.

Now, if someone is already enjoying at least a couple of the first 4 options there (which your PC is, right?), and as the DM I'm not regularly using higher level mobs or soldiers (which I'm not after reading through the grindspace thread months ago) which means the mob role & less than party level mobs tip the balance more in the party's favor for successful hits, then I have a hard time seeing that there's a "hole in the math" ....

It's true I've been careful with my PC's design. But that's irrelevant. For the most part, I'm thinking of the other people around the table; their fun-quotient means a lot to me.

Alright, hole and math aside again for a moment, please clarify what exactly you're asking for.

Fair enough.

<hmmmmmm.....> I *think* I just want to play it "as is". Keep the feat. My preference for this first run-through of 4e is to eschew house rules where ever possible.

That said, I'm not adamantly against banning it, nor would I be hurt <chuckle> if we decided after a while to yank the feat and do "something else". Potentially, just doing as Karinsdad suggests.

 

[Nail]

Part of my concerns are if we accept Expertise as written that:
A) the gap between those in my group who know the rules very well, like Nail and take the feat, and those that don't (& don't take it) will widen, as someone discussed earlier, which will lead to unfunness for some

...I agree that's a concern. I'm hopeful we can fix that.

Honestly since I have little hope of experiencing those tiers anytime soon I'm hoping either WotC or the EN World community will fix it that problem for me before I get there!

Amen.

 

[Intense_Interest]

Wait, just so it is clear, could someone explain to me what the Philosophical Argument is against "Feat Tax"? What is the worth/cost of one (or so) less feat at Heroic over 30 levels of 17 other feats?

Also, it seems that Feat Tax can be replaced with Item Tax, from what I can tell.

 

[Lauberfen]

Put simply, the game is about choices. If there's a feat so good that everyone will take it (as expertise certainly is at 15th onwards, and probably is at heroic too), then that is not a choice- everyone has the feat, and thus one less feat spare to make interesting characters.

So it's much like a real tax- you have less resources left to do what you want. Note that D&D does not contain any of the compelling reasons for taxation, such as the fact that public healthcare simply provides more cost effective treatment than private healthcare.

 

[Eric Finley]

What, are you claiming that the government is just not as good at providing to-hit bonuses as the private sector? Capitalist pig!

Tell it to your local Warlord, pal. (Mental picture of a Warlord character with a modern silicon-valley-style entrepreneurial mindset... ack!)

[That said, dang it's good to be Canadian. You poor sods.]

 

[blargney the second]

If you doubt that the game will get to level 15 anytime soon, then you're only talking about +1 to hit. Previous editions of D&D also gave players the ability to focus on a single weapon to gain +1 to hit. There have always been some players that are willing to specialize at the expense of versatility, and some that don't. Why not let them figure that out for themselves?

In addition, don't forget that there are a pile of conditions you can slather on the PCs to provide huge penalties to attack: restrained, blinded, etc. If you find they're hitting too often, it's really easy to gimp them into near uselessness.
-blarg

 

[mach1.9pants]

I wonder if, to close the gap, it would work ta make the bonuses to hit and/or other things that leadery types give as an effect rather than a hit. It seems that a lot of the problem is all this synergy worked into the system mostly synergisms on a hit... make the stuff that helps your allies always work.
Note in this I am thinking about my group with one leader, if they all wanted go leader 'cos of this I wouldn't play it that way.

 

[Garthanos]

I wonder if, to close the gap, it would work ta make the bonuses to hit and/or other things that leadery types give as an effect rather than a hit. It seems that a lot of the problem is all this synergy worked into the system mostly synergisms on a hit... make the stuff that helps your allies always work.
Note in this I am thinking about my group with one leader, if they all wanted go leader 'cos of this I wouldn't play it that way.

I rather like that ... in some case that might even make more sense.
But how many powers are you house ruling here?

 

[mach1.9pants]

double post

 

[mach1.9pants]

I am not houseruling yet. It was just a thought to maybe stopping the math gap that may or may not have appeared between monsters and PCs...