Expidition to Castle Ravenloft - Spoilers and Answers

[mhacdebhandia]

I said, over on the Wizards of the Coast forums, that the "elven" look people talk about in that picture has pretty much always been there.

I don't think these are all that different, ears-wise.

The real problem with O'Connor's version is the elven frame.

 

[frankthedm]

The real problem with O'Connor's version is the elven frame.

Actually the face is not that long, the snarl with the jaw hidden make his face look a hint elvish rather than his Caldwell square jaw. The real problem is jumbo light blue jacket makes him look like a vampiric dandy out of an Anne Rice story.

 

[Asmo]

I don't think these are all that different, ears-wise.

With all the ear-talk it´s just a matter of time, so I just say it:

Ear, Ear!

Asmo

 

[Hawken]

Did the original Strahd have levels in Wizard (necromancer or otherwise)?

In the original (1st edition, I believe) I6 adventure, he was a vampire that was also a 10th level Wizard. Later reprints had him as a 10th Necromancer, then a 16th level Necromancer. During the Grand Conjunction series of Ravenloft adventures, he was revealed to have been a 20th level Fighter when he still had a heartbeat.

3rd edition Ravenloft material put Strahd's stats as Fighter 4/Necromancer 16. How/why he lost 16 levels of Fighter, who knows! Maybe he found a way to trade Fighter levels for Necromancer levels?

 

[Ron]

In the original (1st edition, I believe) I6 adventure, he was a vampire that was also a 10th level Wizard. Later reprints had him as a 10th Necromancer, then a 16th level Necromancer. During the Grand Conjunction series of Ravenloft adventures, he was revealed to have been a 20th level Fighter when he still had a heartbeat.

3rd edition Ravenloft material put Strahd's stats as Fighter 4/Necromancer 16. How/why he lost 16 levels of Fighter, who knows! Maybe he found a way to trade Fighter levels for Necromancer levels?

Having played the original (1st edition, surely) I6 and having the 2nd edition version. It's clear that, as a vampire, he didn't need any level of figther, as vampires were already pretty scary warriors by themselves. He was later boosted to higher levels to became more in tune with the Ravenloft setting in disregard to the original adventure. I prefer the original version as it allow the adventure to be played by lower level characters, becaming much more scarier than the higher level version.

 

[Hawken]

Having played the original (1st edition, surely) I6 and having the 2nd edition version. It's clear that, as a vampire, he didn't need any level of figther, as vampires were already pretty scary warriors by themselves.

You're putting the cart before the ox. Strahd didn't take levels of Fighter to be a scarier vampire. He was a Fighter before he even considered going down the path that made him a vampire. He was responsible for ridding his homeland of invaders. He wasn't a "sit back and watch" kind of guy either. He was out there with his troops in the middle of all those battles. He walked away from it a 20th level Fighter that rid his country of invading barbarian hordes after 26 years of warfare (roughly the equivalent of a country the size of Germany telling Ghengis Khan to go to Hell). Anyone fighting barbarian hordes for 26 years and surviving sure as heck would come out of it at least with 20 levels in a fighting class.

He was later boosted to higher levels to became more in tune with the Ravenloft setting in disregard to the original adventure. I prefer the original version as it allow the adventure to be played by lower level characters, becaming much more scarier than the higher level version.

That's not quite true either. The Ravenloft setting expanded upon the adventure, it didn't disregard it. Following the timeline of the setting, the original adventure occured some 230 years before the current setting. And the time of the original adventure was some 180 years after he became a vampire anyway. If Strahd could get 20 Fighter levels after 26 years of warfare, it's not too far fetched to believe he could gain 10 levels of Necromancer in 180 years and then 6 more levels a few centuries down the line!

If the game is scarier for you at lower levels than higher, that's fine for you. But reprints that allowed it to be played by higher level characters weren't any less scary. Strahd hitting for 2 levels at a time still only meant that higher level players had a few more hit points, they could survive maybe one or two more hits, otherwise, not really much difference from the low level game. And even if you let all 12th level characters in the game, a 10th level Strahd could still wipe the walls with them without being bumped to 16th level.

 

[GQuail]

Quit trying to personalize this. That's the second time you've tried to insult me and/or my playing group.

This issue is a legitimate concern and has nothing to do with my group in particular. If you can't see the issue by now, then I'm not going to waste any more time on you.

.....I'm sorry, I don't recall ever replying to a post of yours before. (The one you quote was the first I've written on the topic of your comments on this adventure, certainly.) I didn't realise I was going to touch a nerve here. You can PM me if you want to talk about what I've said in the past.

As for the my group concers vs general concers: Felon has a valid point in that not everyone who reads the sample does so planning to break an adventure, and may simply be idly considering running it and then later on another GM opts to use it instead. But arguably, with a character as famous in D&D as Strahd, that's always going to be something of a problem: when the words "Vistani", "Barovia" or "Ireena" get used in an adventue, I know what I'd be suspecting OOC, even if I didn't know there was a new 3.5 version out.

The reason I was "personalizing" it is because, well, there are some groups I've played with where that would be an issue, and otehrs where it wouldn't. That can be a trust thng linked to metagame stuff, but it can also be as simple as "I know another player who sometimes GMs and he might check this book out to". I know I've played in adventures before which are sample adventures for the campaign setting/system which I also owned, and so I knew (and had possibly ran as well) - does that ruin them? Sometimes it takes away some of the fun, yes.

I don't think it's a disaster that Strahd's stats are up online - but I'll at least concur that in a horror adventure in paticular, that information being public domain can ruin some of the tension. Certainly, if someone asked me if I fancied playing in their Ravenloft game, I'd have to cross that hurdle.

 

[shilsen]

Oh yeah, because there are no players out there who have memorized the Monster Manual back and forth.

/sarcasm

You're kidding yourself. Players can easily remember the stuff about Strahd that's special. In particular, they will know that he doesn't suffer from traditional vampire weaknesses. That's supposed to have real shock value for the characters, like when the starts to rise and the players think they have him beaten. Imagine evil peals of laughter as he bask in the vermillion glow...as he crushes someone's head.

Once more, not a good idea.

I don't see why a player knowing something should prevent it having shock value for the character. I've played in games where I knew significant details of the adventure we were playing (which I told the DM about) and I was still able to enjoy it thoroughly because I could separate player and character knowledge. If the problem lies in players who will use metagame knowledge, that's a problem which goes well beyond having stats up at WotC.

 

[Ron]

You're putting the cart before the ox. Strahd didn't take levels of Fighter to be a scarier vampire. He was a Fighter before he even considered going down the path that made him a vampire.[...]

According to AD&D rules, it didn't matter what the vampire actually done when alive. All of them are the same regarding the MM stats, which means they were pretty good in combat regadless if the were fighters or farmers in the past. As far as I remember, Strahd was the first monster with class levels and, thus, he was a rule breaker. The fact the designers add only magic-user levels indicate that they thought that Strahd ability as a fighter was encompassed in the vampire's combat ability.

I don't have much knowledge of Ravenlof as a setting and, as such, I will not comment your answer.

If the game is scarier for you at lower levels than higher, that's fine for you. But reprints that allowed it to be played by higher level characters weren't any less scary. Strahd hitting for 2 levels at a time still only meant that higher level players had a few more hit points, they could survive maybe one or two more hits, otherwise, not really much difference from the low level game. And even if you let all 12th level characters in the game, a 10th level Strahd could still wipe the walls with them without being bumped to 16th level.

There is a question of taste, for sure, but I still insist that the adventure was scarier at lower levels. At higher levels, clerics are much more efficient to take care of undeads and to neutralize their powers. This makes all the difference.

 

[Felon]

I don't see why a player knowing something should prevent it having shock value for the character. I've played in games where I knew significant details of the adventure we were playing (which I told the DM about) and I was still able to enjoy it thoroughly because I could separate player and character knowledge. If the problem lies in players who will use metagame knowledge, that's a problem which goes well beyond having stats up at WotC.

The problem lies in the fact that pretend shock is a thoroughly lame substitute for genuine shock--the kind that's actually got the player involuntarily blurting out "OH CRAP!!!". That's more priceless than a hundred well-reheared "By the light of Pelor!!! Sunlight does not affect this prince of the damned!! How can it be?"s

Anyone else want any other rather obvious things explained while I'm here...?