Explain Shake the Earth to me

[JoeNotCharles]

"Shake the Earth", from the Earth Shaker PP from Primal Power, says:

Close burst 4
Target: Each enemy in burst
Special: Solid obstacles do not black line of effect for the burst
Hit: damage + If the target is burrowing, you slide it 4 squares to the square nearest to it that is within your line of effect

If solid obstacles don't block line of effect, isn't this pretty much slide 1? It seems to me the only time you'd slide it the full 4 squares is if you have line of effect to it and to *no other square* that's within 4 squares of it, and those lines of effect are blocked by some sort of non-solid obstacle. This is incredibly unlikely and convoluted. What am I missing?

 

[Saagael]

I think it means Line of Effect based on your other powers, and not this power. So that you can slide a burrowing creature out from behind it's rock into your sight and charge it with an action point or something similar.

At least that's how I'd rule it.

 

[Nichwee]

The Special part only gives the burst LoE through solid objects not the Hit Line. i.e. It lets you target and attack through objects but your basic LoE area is not changed.

It seems to be so you can force a burrowing creature to the surface. You target a burrowing creature and slide it up through the ground to the surface, which is your normal LoE area.

 

[Hypersmurf]

The Special part only gives the burst LoE through solid objects not the Hit Line. i.e. It lets you target and attack through objects but your basic LoE area is not changed.

It seems to be so you can force a burrowing creature to the surface. You target a burrowing creature and slide it up through the ground to the surface, which is your normal LoE area.

Up through the ground?

FORCED MOVEMENT
- Distance in Squares: The power you’re using specifies how many squares you can move a target. You can choose to move the target fewer squares or not to move it at all. You can’t move the target vertically.

-Hyp.

 

[Nichwee]

I'm going to call "Specific Beats General" here. Plus it just seems the only RAI way I can see this working well.

If you targetted a burrowing creature (who may well be underground) and have to pull it to somewhere in your normal LoE you are forced to pull it up through the ground - even though forced movement is not normally allowed vertically.

Basically I see this as the burrowing equivalent of "flyer knocked prone" which is a sort of forced movement to the ground.

 

[Larrin]

yeah, 'no vertical movement' is a good rule 90% of the time to keep powers from tossing creatures into the air, or trying to drive them into the ground, but if they're in 3d traversable medium (water, burrowing in earth, the zero gravity plane of empty void) the logic behind the rule goes away. In such situations, verticle and horizontal are sort of interchangeable movement wise, so forced movement wouldn't have the same restrictions. The power does seem to specifically describe this sort of result, so it can claim specific V. general. Honsetly, thought, how often will this even be an issue?

 

[Dr_Ruminahui]

I agree - the "only horizontal" rule is to prevent tossing folks into the air, and really ought not be applied where the moved creature would have been fully capable of having moved there on there own.

For example, I see no reason why a push couldn't move a flying creature higher into the air, or move a character up/down a set of stairs.

And if this is actually not strictly RAW, IMHO it is an immenently sensible house rule. To extend it, such a rule would also allow one to slide a phasing creature through a wall. The only issue I have with it (and I'm not sure how to resolve this one), is moving creatures from a space that most creatures could move to, but they couldn't - though I can only see this coming up with force moving creatures that only have a swim speed onto land.

 

[DracoSuave]

To extend it, such a rule would also allow one to slide a phasing creature through a wall.

A phasing creature can use a walk action to move through (but not finish movement in) a wall. Therefore, forced movement already allows this, as it allows any movement a walk action can complete.

Does a burrowed creature use a walk action to burrow? My memory is hazy on this.

 

[Jhaelen]

A phasing creature can use a walk action to move through (but not finish movement in) a wall. Therefore, forced movement already allows this, as it allows any movement a walk action can complete.

Does a burrowed creature use a walk action to burrow? My memory is hazy on this.

Hmm, but don't you need line of sight (or effect) to the square you want to slide a creature to? As soon as you slide a creature into a wall, you lose both.

 

[eamon]

For example, I see no reason why a push couldn't move a flying creature higher into the air, or move a character up/down a set of stairs.

And if this is actually not strictly RAW, IMHO it is an immenently sensible house rule. To extend it, such a rule would also allow one to slide a phasing creature through a wall. The only issue I have with it (and I'm not sure how to resolve this one), is moving creatures from a space that most creatures could move to, but they couldn't - though I can only see this coming up with force moving creatures that only have a swim speed onto land.

The stair example is great: assume you literally say you can only push them horizonally, then now you must push them straight out - and then they fall down. You can't just push them down the stairs . On the other hand, you can't push em up at all....

None of that makes any sense to me ;-).

I think the intended meaning is probably that forced movement cannot by itself provide significant vertical lift; so you can push people up or down slight inclines, and certainly down in the air, but cannot throw upwards non-flying creatures or flying creatures that let themselves drop.