Explain the appeal of critical fumbles to me

[Brother MacLaren]

And the only soldiers that suffer friendly fire...? I've wielded practice weapons enough to be glad that they aren't razor sharp, but that is beside the point. Mass combat arguably is[/is] ~5% of the combatants hurting themselves and thier allies. Take a look at football injuries. Take a look at the causes of causalties in warfare. But the heart of this complaint is simply 'too severe' all over again.

There are already enough ways to hit your buddies with friendly fire -- the cover rules, grenade-like weapons, mis-aiming your fireball, etc.

Much of a heavyweight boxing match consists of the two fighters waiting for the other one to fumble badly enough that they can attempt a knockout punch. Why shouldn't this be a reasonable strategy in D&D as wel?.

I think I would be fine with a fumble system that gave AOOs on a confirmed fumble, or perhaps one that leaves you flat-footed for the round. Either would seem to reflect your example above. And with such a system, attacking something that isn't threatening you can't cause a "real" fumble (e.g. sniping at a target, knifing somebody who's trying to run away, etc.). I would also introduce feats to negate fumbles -- just as there is a feat to increase your crit chance by 100%, there could be a feat to reduce your fumble chance by 100%.

 

[Phoenix8008]

Okay, here is the system I've been using for awhile for critical fumbles: If you roll a 1, then you make a Dex check (DC 10). If you make the Dex check, you hold onto your weapon. Otherwise, your weapon/ranged attack/spell is dropped/thrown/misfired/etc. To determine where it goes, roll a d4 and a d8. d8 determines direction with a 1 being straight ahead on the grid and the other numbers following clockwise around from there (1=N, 2=NE, 3=E, 4=SE, etc.). The d4 determines distance in 5' squares (1 = in your square at your feet, 2= in next 5' square, 3=10' away, 4=15' away). If the weapon/ranged attack/spell lands in an occupied square then the PC makes another attack roll against who/whatever is in that square including themselves.

I know that isn't very elegant and it adds at least one roll and maybe as many as 5 total if they hit something in the square where their weapon/attack/spell ends up. But it doesn't happen very often so it's not a great burden I feel.

As for WHY I use critical fumbles... a few reasons pop up and most have already been mentioned. None of which will change anyone's mind if they don't want to use critical fumbles. As with all things, YMMV. If it ain't for you, don't use it. I enjoy them because they add some balance and some tension into the game. Also as mentioned, they tend to generate fun and memorable stories. For some, those reasons aren't enough and that's fine. Me and my players enjoy having them and will continue to use them for as long as they do.

On a side note, I very much liked Paizo's Critical Hit deck and can't wait to see a Critical Fumble deck.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Anyway, the point there is that Paizo (at least) must be pretty sure that lots of gamers like the idea.

Right, which is why I wanted the appeal explained. I never suggested that lots of people didn't like it.

 

[Aus_Snow]

Right, which is why I wanted the appeal explained. I never suggested that lots of people didn't like it.

Sure, OK. I, for that matter, never suggested that that comment of mine was for only you, or even for you at all.

Just sayin'.

 

[Humanaut]

Good hits and bad misses

I use a set of charts for Crits and Fumbles from old Dragon article. But a nat 1, followed by nat 1 is a Fumble. d100 on a large chart that is mostly drop weapon or slip and fall, maybe wound self or friend if you roll high enough. (I let them roll on the charts). If they roll nat 20, nat 20 they can roll on various Crit charts. For the Crit it may add further damage to the 3e crit hit, or not...

My players and i think they are a riot. It gives the off chance to hack off an arm on a good blow, or fall on their hind end in the middle of battle.

So i'd go with Comic Relief, though i do like a "counter" to crit hits.

I'd also add that in older editions Wizards used to fry themselves with bouncing lightning bolts and backlashed fireballs... also frick'n hilarious.

I too have old stories of particular fights where that crit hit/ fumble made a memorable encounter, funny or nail bitting.

Just like in the movies... when DOESN'T the hero drop their weapon, end up on the ground, or step on something noisy when you KNOW they shouldn't... that's just drama. Kinda boring if the super ninja hero just goes from scene to scene w/o complications and kills with one blow over and over and over. IMHO

 

[Minicol]

Why?

Sure, but there's a LOT of places that D&D could add realism. Dysentery should probably be a threat in every D&D game, but Paizo's not putting out a Critical Bowel Movements Deck as a result. What's the particular appeal of critical fumbles?

Now that's an Idea. I believe Avalanche had something like this somewhere in their "historical" line, and there was a chance of dying from infected wounds after a fight.

 

[VengefulGazeofGod]

So there are Feats and Weapon enchantments that expand a weapons critical threat range (not auto hit range which is only ever on a NATURAL 20).

Would not the mathematical opposite of an ability to expand one's critical threat range be an ability or disadvantage that expands one's critical fumble range?

 

[Switchblade]

I’m generally against critical failures in “heroic” or high fantasy games such as DnD. (Uh, not that I’d ever describe the groups I play with as heroic, at best not completely mercenary) Slows the game down, doesn’t add to the enjoyment and is usually rather unrealistic. I can’t remember seeing anyone drop their sword in fencing and the few times in larp was only because it was so cold that people’s fingers were completely numb. And I’ve never seen anyone stab themselves.

I think my hatred of fumbles in DnD goes back to my Dark Sun Thri-Kreen who had a wonderful ability to bite his wrist open, disembowel himself with every claw swing and generally be putting himself from full hp to negative hp in the first round of every fight. Wouldn’t have been so bad but I was the fighter. I dreaded getting to a high enough level to get the paralysing bite. :\ Needless to say he didn’t last long, though it was someone elses crit failure that did for him in the end.

Sure, you slip on a patch of mud and have to recover your balance now and again (or whatever), that’s why you miss if you are an expert, the auto miss on a 1. Saying that 5% of the time you stuff up to a potentially life threatening degree is just stupid. It turns into a farce. When I want that sort of game I’ll play Paranoia. At least then it is expected and wanted.

The only think I think is acceptable is the Dark Sun system of testing for weapon breakages on a 1 or max damage on non metal weapons. Even then there was only a 1 in 6 in most cases of a weapon breaking. What do you expect from a bone axe?

A crit EVERY time a one is rolled is just too much. Things going wrong for someone who knows the basics of how to wield a weapon and a proper stance by their own action is somewhat slim.

As for any more rolls to test for fumbles I'd much rather speed the game up with less rolls than slow it down with more.

Well, that's my 3* pennies worth

*inflation don't you know

 

[Celebrim]

I think my hatred of fumbles in DnD goes back to my Dark Sun Thri-Kreen who had a wonderful ability to bite his wrist open, disembowel himself with every claw swing and generally be putting himself from full hp to negative hp in the first round of every fight...A crit EVERY time a one is rolled is just too much. Things going wrong for someone who knows the basics of how to wield a weapon and a proper stance by their own action is somewhat slim.

I think you can make a fair complaint that fumble mechanics slow the game down too much compared to amount they add to the game, and if that is your opinion then great; but these complaints about the silly seriousness of the fumbles is not a complaint about fumbles in general but about a particularly ridiculous implementation of them.

For example, the current version of my fumble chart looks like this:

01-07 Off Balance – Make a DC 5 balance check or suffer a -2 circumstance penalty on all attacks and opponents have a +2 bonus to hit you until the beginning of your next round.
08-13 Off Balance – Make a DC 10 balance check or suffer a -2 circumstance penalty on all attacks and opponents have a +2 bonus to hit you until the beginning of your next round.
14-16 Off Balance – Make a DC 5 balance check or fall prone.
17-18 Off Balance – Make a DC 10 balance check or fall prone.
19-22 Off Balance – Make a DC 10 balance check or become flatfooted until the beginning of your next round.
23-25 Off Balance – Confirm the fumble. If you fail a second time, if you are threatened by your target and the target has an available attack opportunity, the target may make a free trip attempt. If it fails, you may not attempt to trip your opponent.
26-30 Off Balance – Confirm the fumble. If you fail a second time, your weapon becomes unreadied. If you can ready a weapon as a free action, you may ignore this result.
31-33 Off Balance – Make a DC 10 balance check or lose remaining attacks in the round, and drop to the end of the initiative order.
34-35 Off Balance – Make a DC 10 balance check or lose remaining attacks in the round, and you may only take a partial action in your next round.
36-42 Clumsy Attack – DC 10 Dex check or drop weapon into your space. Ignore this result if you are using a natural weapon, or if you have a locking gauntlet.
43-47 Clumsy Attack – DC 10 Dex check or drop weapon into adjacent space (roll direction randomly). Ignore this result if you are attacking with a natural weapon, or if you have a locking gauntlet.
48-51 Clumsy Attack – DC 10 Str check or drop weapon into adjacent space (roll direction randomly). Ignore this result if you are attacking with a natural weapon, or if you have a locking gauntlet.
52-54 Clumsy Attack – Confirm the fumble. If you fail a second time, and if you are threatened by your target and the target has an available attack opportunity, the target may make a free disarm attempt. If it fails, you may not attempt to disarm your opponent. Ignore this result if you are attacking with a natural weapon.
55-56 Clumsy Attack – Confirm the fumble. If you fail a second time, and if you are threatened by your target and the target has an available attack opportunity, the target may make a free sunder attempt. If it fails, you may not attempt to sunder your opponent’s weapon in reply. If you are attacking with a natural weapon, your opponent receives an attack of opportunity.
52-57 Drop Guard – Confirm the fumble. If you fail a second time, lose your shield bonus to AC, if you have one, until the beginning of your next round.
58-62 Drop Guard – Confirm the fumble. If you fail a second time, opponents have a +2 circumstance bonus to hit you until the beginning of your next round.
63-66 Drop Guard – Confirm the fumble. If you fail a second time, opponents have a +4 circumstance bonus to hit you until the beginning of your next round.
67-69 Drop Guard – Confirm the fumble. If you fail a second time, become flatfooted until your next action.
70-71 Drop Guard – Confirm the fumble. If you fail a second time, the target of your attack receives an attack of opportunity against you at the end of your attack.
72-74 Overexert Self – Make a DC 5 endurance check or become fatigued until you can catch your breath for 1 full round in which you take no other action.
75-77 Overexert Self – Make a DC 10 endurance check or become fatigued until you can catch your breath for 1 full round in which you take no other action.
78-79 Overexert Self – Make a DC 10 endurance check or become fatigued until you can rest for 1 minute.
80-81 Overexert Self – Make a DC 5 endurance check or pull a muscle, dealing 1 pt. of Dex damage at the end of the encounter.
82-83 Overexert Self - Make a DC 5 endurance check or pull a muscle, dealing 1 pt. of Str damage at the end of the encounter.
84 Overexert Self – Make a DC 10 endurance check or pull a muscle, dealing 1d3 pt. of Dex damage at the end of the encounter.
85 Overexert Self - Make a DC 10 endurance check or pull a muscle, dealing 1d3 pt. of Str damage at the end of the encounter.
86 Overexert Self – Make a DC 10 endurance check or pull a muscle, dealing 1d3 pt. of Dex damage immediately.
87 Overexert Self - Make a DC 10 endurance check or pull a muscle, dealing 1d3 pt. of Str damage immediately.
88-89 Trip Self – Confirm the fumble. If you fail a second time, make a trip attack against yourself. Ignore this result if you are using a light weapon.
90-91 Strike Self – Confirm the fumble. If you fail a second time, make an attack against yourself. If the attack is successful, deal normal damage for the weapon ignoring your strength bonus and additional damage from critical hits or sneak attacks. Ignore this roll if you are attacking with a bludgeoning or natural weapon.
92 Strike Self – Confirm the fumble. If you fail a second time, make an attack against yourself. If the attack is successful, deal normal damage for the weapon ignoring your strength bonus and additional damage from critical hits or sneak attacks. If you are using a bludgeoning weapon, the damage is not lethal. Ignore this roll if you are attacking with natural weapons.
93 Strike Self – Confirm the fumble. If you fail a second time, make an attack against yourself. If the attack is successful, deal normal damage for the weapon ignoring your strength bonus and additional damage from critical hits or sneak attacks. Ignore this roll if you are attacking with natural weapons.
94 Strike Self – Confirm the fumble. If you fail a second time, make an attack against yourself. If the If the attack is successful, deal normal damage for the weapon including your strength bonus and additional damage from critical hits, but ignoring sneak attacks or other attacks that require precision. Ignore this roll if you are attacking with natural weapons.
95-00 Roll Again Twice – Ignoring a second roll in the same category.

The table is designed to reflect the sorts of things I actually see in fights and atheletic competition. I'm rather mystified by this talk that you never actually see skilled combatants hurt themselves, slip and fall, fumble, stumble, and so forth. It's not perfect, and I'm still refining it, but you'll note that its absolutely impossible to evicerate yourself with your natural weapons on this table.

Yes, it does slow down the game. But I tend to be open to additional dice rolls if those dice rolls can have a cinematic effect. If it helps you see the fight as something more than dice being thrown and numbers being subtracted, then I don't mind slowing down the game to do it.

 

[Switchblade]

Oh I've seen people trip and fall, just not while attacking, only while backing rapidly away from someone on the offensive which I'd put under a bull rush from opponent rather than a fumble on an attack. And as for pulling muscles, done it myself a few times, never noticed it during the fight with adrenaline running, only afterward. Not something you really need to test for in the middle of a DnD combat.


I was putting in the Thri Kreen example to show where my DnD bias comes from, I know it is pretty much an example of the implementation at it's worse. My objection is mostly genre and speed as opposed to the whole concept of things going wrong though. I just don't feel it fits into the high fantasy feel of DnD.

(I LOVE botches in Ars Magica for example, even if it is me, more gritty system though and even then not very common and is designed to factor in the botch so rarely slows things down except twilight which is a major point of the game.)