Explain why DMPCs are bad to me.

[The_Gneech]

o/`
ToMAYto!
ToMAHto!
PoTAYto!
PoTAHto!
Let's call the whole thing off...
o/`

What we've got here now, is group A saying that "all DMPCs" are what group B calls "Mary Sue NPCs" or "bad DMPCs", and what group B call "DMPCs" or "good DMPCs" are actually just "NPCs", whereas group B is saying that "DMPCs" are different from NPCs as they gain full treasure and XP and are basically the DM's character in the game whereas an NPC just means "any character in the game that isn't run by a player."

This is why there's so much confusion on the issue -- people won't agree on terminology!

So when you ask people, "explain why DMPCs are bad to me," it seems you're going to have to define your terms at the outset. Everybody seems to be in agreement that "Mary Sue NPCs"/"Bad DMPC" are bad, and most people seem to be more or less fine with "good DMPCs/NPCs that happen to get XP and treasure" -- they just can't agree on what to call 'em.

-The Gneech

 

[Kahuna Burger]

o/`
ToMAYto!
ToMAHto!
PoTAYto!
PoTAHto!
Let's call the whole thing off...
o/`

What we've got here now, is group A saying that "all DMPCs" are what group B calls "Mary Sue NPCs" or "bad DMPCs", and what group B call "DMPCs" or "good DMPCs" are actually just "NPCs", whereas group B is saying that "DMPCs" are different from NPCs as they gain full treasure and XP and are basically the DM's character in the game whereas an NPC just means "any character in the game that isn't run by a player."

This is why there's so much confusion on the issue -- people won't agree on terminology!

So when you ask people, "explain why DMPCs are bad to me," it seems you're going to have to define your terms at the outset. Everybody seems to be in agreement that "Mary Sue NPCs"/"Bad DMPC" are bad, and most people seem to be more or less fine with "good DMPCs/NPCs that happen to get XP and treasure" -- they just can't agree on what to call 'em.

-The Gneech

two sides?



Seriously, you are missing the folks who call npcs that the players control in combat DMPCs, the people who are not OK with npcs that have full party status (as opposed to hirelings/cohorts), people who think that mary sue dmpcs are an ok thing because Gandalf worked.... I haven't the time to list all the overlapping and opposing sides that come up in this topic, but I'd say there are very real disagreements on what is an OK way to play an NPC that are confused but not caused by the terminology problems.

Its more a "PotAto, patAHto, Tamale, Salami" sort of argument.

 

[Goddess FallenAngel]

So when you ask people, "explain why DMPCs are bad to me," it seems you're going to have to define your terms at the outset.

Honestly, until I stated this thread, I didn't realize there were so many different interpretations of said term.

 

[Wolv0rine]

Honestly, until I stated this thread, I didn't realize there were so many different interpretations of said term.

Lord knows, it seems to Me that "DMPC" pretty much lays itself out there and defines itself. "A PC run by the DM" where the term PC itself opens up it's own can of worms. To me, a PC is a character on equal ground with the player's PCs (in every way, including but not limited to loot, XP, involvement in planning, spotlight time, and full-on RP and three-dimensionality of said character).
But hey, people seem to have the weirdest criteria for how they define a term.

 

[Scarbonac]

Doc Savage. All of his friends were the best at everything... Ham... the world's best lawyer... next to Doc Savage... Monk... the world's best chemist... next to Doc Savage... Johnny... world's best archaeologist and geologist... next to... you guessed it... Doc Savage. -- I kept asking myself, *Why the heck are these guys hanging around this guy? Better yet, why is this guy hanging around with THEM?*

Because they are friends and brothers in arms. In fact, if you'll remember, Doc always called them "Brothers".


'Sides, Doc couldn't be everywhere at once and do everything himself...

 

[Dykstrav]

As a DM, I've never felt the need to join the characters in the party on the quests. In my opinion, the DM gets to play every other character in the entire world. I get to make all the characters I want, at the levels I want and with the abilities I want. Besides, playing the monsters and villains has a certain dramatic charm that you just don't get from playing a heroic character.

Whenever a party role isn't being filled, I generally allow the characters to pick up Joe Adventurer in the tavern and simply let a player run two characters. This is with the understanding that the character gets to leave if a new player joins and they have to play it cool (i.e., no heroic suicides to save their other character or any of that BS). This system has always worked for me.

DMPC's as described in this thread are one of the big reasons I didn't/don't like Forgotten Realms games. The setting has its strong points and areas for improvement, like any other setting. But virtually every FR game I've ever seen has included either Elminster or Drizzt as DMPC's, whom the PC's are essentially working for as cohorts. A 2E Undermountain campaign I played was inexplicably lead by Elminster, who blasted the critters with magic while we basically hauled the treasure out of Undermountain for him. I don't call that game a 'Monty Haul' because we were essentially moving men for a steady supply of chests and sacks stuffed with gold and gems.

 

[Goddess FallenAngel]

Whenever a party role isn't being filled, I generally allow the characters to pick up Joe Adventurer in the tavern and simply let a player run two characters. This is with the understanding that the character gets to leave if a new player joins and they have to play it cool (i.e., no heroic suicides to save their other character or any of that BS). This system has always worked for me.

What happens if a player doesn't want to play 2 characters? Personally, I detest it. I feel my attention is split over trying to RP two different personalities. For that same reason, I don't allow more than one PC per player at the same time when I DM (if one PC is off doing something else, that is fine, but only 1 travels with the party at any given time).

DMPC's as described in this thread are one of the big reasons I didn't/don't like Forgotten Realms games. The setting has its strong points and areas for improvement, like any other setting. But virtually every FR game I've ever seen has included either Elminster or Drizzt as DMPC's, whom the PC's are essentially working for as cohorts. A 2E Undermountain campaign I played was inexplicably lead by Elminster, who blasted the critters with magic while we basically hauled the treasure out of Undermountain for him. I don't call that game a 'Monty Haul' because we were essentially moving men for a steady supply of chests and sacks stuffed with gold and gems.

That's bad DMming. It has nothing to do with the world - I've had the same issue in a homebrew setting, where the DM had the super-powerful NPC of the world ordering us around. (Didn't stay in that game long.) Blaming the setting because your DM made the party cohorts to the NPCS is sorta like blaming Toyota because someone who owned one was a bad driver and damaged your car.

 

[Slife]

Does having a tagalong NPC healbot cleric (none of the PC is a healer) count?

 

[Dykstrav]

What happens if a player doesn't want to play 2 characters?

That's bad DMming. It has nothing to do with the world...

Then I adjust the adventure to accomodate the party size. Most of my players have been willing to play 2 characters because of a perception that a smaller party size equals smaller XP rewards and less treasure (somewhat true, but there's less characters to divide it amongst, so I take whichever route the players prefer).

Hence why I said 'Forgotten Realms games,' not 'the Forgotten Realms setting.' There's been some very good adventures published for FR, such as the Bloodstone Pass series and Undermountain.

 

[Goddess FallenAngel]

Hence why I said 'Forgotten Realms games,' not 'the Forgotten Realms setting.' There's been some very good adventures published for FR, such as the Bloodstone Pass series and Undermountain.

I guess I took it as the setting - I've played FR games for years, and have never met any of the 'established NPCs' in the games, and I've never played through any of those modules (although I do hear good things about many of them, and have ran one of the Bloodstone Pass series in my game). I have heard a lot of people with the same complaint you have, and most blame the setting, so I guess I just heard that automatically, sorry. I still liken it to how the DM takes the setting and runs it for his games, as opposed to the setting itself.