Extra Spell allowing Spell List poaching

[Viktyr Gehrig]

One difference I've noted between Expanded Knowledge (XPH) and Extra Spell (CArc) is that the Expanded Knowledge feat allows the character to take a new power off of any psionic class' power list.

I have been considering allowing Extra Spell to do this, as long as the new spell is chosen from a spell list that uses the same kind of magic-- in other words, arcane casters can learn other arcane casters' spells, and divine casters can learn other divine casters' spells.

Some areas of concern are, to me, allowing Clerics and Druids to poach domain spells, or Wizards or Sorcerors to pick up the Cure spells from the Bard's list, or allowing the Warmage to pick up spells other than Evocation spells.

Anyone have an opinion on this? Recommendations?

 

[Thanee]

Well, there is already Arcane Disciple, which gives you access to out of class spells, so it's probably not really a balance issue (more of a flavor issue).

Not sure what the rationale behind the Expanded Knowledge was, maybe they see the psionics classes more closely related than the arcane/divine classes?

Cleric and druid or bard and wizard are "more different" than psion and psychic warrior.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Li Shenron]

I absolutely agree that it makes sense, and provides an added change of versatility for both PCs and NPCs.

I would have NO problems allowing Extra Spell to fetch a spell from a different list divine/arcane-wise. One feat cost is high enough to grant that, especially if 3.5 has kept the 3.0 limitation that the spell must be 1 level lower than the max level you can cast (therefore, no Sorcerers with Miracle...).

Balance-wise there will be close to no issue (except perhaps some synergies, but I wouldn't worry). Flavor-wise instead you just have to ask yourself: do I want a Cleric with Fireball or a Sorcerer with Heal? If you prefer the traditional D&D boundary between them, toss in a hard restriction (such as only 1/day use, or simply allow/ban on a case-by-case), otherwise if that's ok with you then just allow everything

Frankly, in a world where Hexblades, Warlocks and Favoured Souls are allowed, I don't understand why your idea should be not...

 

[Li Shenron]

More details:

- some spells are on more than a list, such as Earthquake, at different levels; as a guideline I'd suggest to allow the highest-level spell

- be careful when allowing spells from lists that only go up to 4th level, because the spells are more "compressed"; for example a Paladin's Holy Sword (4th) is usually cast at a much higher character level than 7th

- I would probably disallow (for flavor) restricted spells such as domains-only spells, unless the character is involved with that church or has some specific knowledge source

 

[Spatzimaus]

I already have this IMC, except we go like this:

Any Feat or Prestige class ability that allows a character to know additional spells/powers allows you to learn spells outside your class, at a penalty.

> If it's from the "related" class, the spell is 1 level higher than normal. This also includes Clerics who choose a spell from one of the Domains of their deity (whether or not they chose that domain).
> If it's from a non-related class, it's 2 levels higher than normal.

So, this means a Cleric who chooses Fireball (assuming he doesn't have access to a Domain containing it) gets it as a level 5 spell. This actually does increase its save DC by 2, but it's still capped at 10d6 damage. And to get it with Extra Spell you'd need to be much higher in level than a Wizard.

There's also a separate feat I have that allows a "hybrid" caster to select any of their spells from the parent class at the +1 penalty. So, a Ranger could load up with Druid spells, a Bard could take Magic Missile and such, and so on. You'd be amazed how much difference that 1 level makes to a class with a slow progression.

 

[Viktyr Gehrig]

Flavor-wise instead you just have to ask yourself: do I want a Cleric with Fireball or a Sorcerer with Heal? If you prefer the traditional D&D boundary between them, toss in a hard restriction (such as only 1/day use, or simply allow/ban on a case-by-case), otherwise if that's ok with you then just allow everything

I prefer maintaining the flavor to an extent, and I do think part of the arcane/divine schism is balance-- divine casters get powerful buffs and healing abilities, while arcanists get all the blast and most of the utility. I'm not interested in a "hard" limitation, but I like the idea that Extra Spell discourages it by restricting it to less than your highest level.

I absolutely agree with you that if the spell is different levels on different spell lists, it should be picked at the highest level-- spell level reduction is sometimes a special perk of a class, and spell level increase is sometimes a sign that a class isn't supposed to be good with the spell. If a class doesn't even have the spell on its class list... it should of course be even more difficult for them to acquire.

Frankly, in a world where Hexblades, Warlocks and Favoured Souls are allowed, I don't understand why your idea should be not...

Thanks for the feedback.

> If it's from the "related" class, the spell is 1 level higher than normal. This also includes Clerics who choose a spell from one of the Domains of their deity (whether or not they chose that domain).

Hmm. So, instead of requiring the caster to choose a spell lower than their highest level, they instead treat the spell as one level higher? I think this makes a good deal of sense-- perhaps going a step further, and Extra Spell used to take a spell from your list requires you to choose a spell one level lower than your maximum, while Extra Spell used to take a spell from a different list requires you to take a spell two levels lower than your maximum-- and it counts as a level higher, as well.

I don't think I would, under any circumstances, increase a spell's level by two, though. That goes from discouraging to punitive. (And since I'd only allow it for magic within type, it wouldn't be necessary.)

Of course, psionic powers need not have this restriction because of the differences between how psionics and magic work.

 

[Viktyr Gehrig]

I get the impression that people responding to this thread are less concerned with the boundary between arcane and divine than I am. However, what's the consensus with the Warmage? Should their usage of Extra Spell be limited the way their Advanced Learning class ability is, or should the Extra Spell feat allow them to diversify?

 

[Li Shenron]

I get the impression that people responding to this thread are less concerned with the boundary between arcane and divine than I am. However, what's the consensus with the Warmage? Should their usage of Extra Spell be limited the way their Advanced Learning class ability is, or should the Extra Spell feat allow them to diversify?

You can also limit the option to 1 feat per character. That would just slightly "blur" the boundary IMO.

Or better, add that a spell taken from a different list is max -2 level if same arcane/divine type, or -3 if different type.