Extra Spell

[Thanee]

However, when I asked them specifically why it differed from Extra Power, they gave no answer.

Heh. Well, what should they say... they are not the developers.

Only explanation I can give you is, that psionic disciplines work different (you lose access to all but one, when you specialize, whereas wizards only lose access to one or two schools).

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

"for wizards..., Extra Spell is generally used to learn a spell that the character lacks access to and would unable to research"

...is generally used...

These words alone strongly imply, that the words following them do not provide extra rules, but an explanation to the previously stated rules (that the feat allows you to learn an extra spell). It's an attempt to explain why this feat does not totally suck for wizards (which it sure does, even with the explanation). And nothing else.

It sure seems possible that extra spell is a specific exception to the general rule that a wizard cannot learn a spell from a prohibit school.

That still () seems to be a very lenient interpretation of the text to me, especially since the feat description doesn't say anything about that. And some rather drastic change in the basic rules surely would have been stated in a little more direct fashion.

Feats (or any rules for that matter), have to state what they do, not hint at. If they do not state, that you can suddenly learn spells not on your class spell list, then you can't do that.

It surely would have been better to use stronger terms than 'not available to', 'lacks access to'.

They should have stated explicitly, that classes can only learn spells from their class spell list.
They should have stated explicitly, that spells from prohibited schools are removed from the class spell list.
They should have stated explicitly, that Extra Spell allows you to learn one more spell from your class spell list.

They didn't, these things only exist in the meta framework behind the rules text.

They didn't, because this general rule, that you can only learn and cast spells from your class spell list, is something they probably consider so obvious, that they do not state it anywhere explicitly (except the casting part, that is, which is stated in the PHB).

And once more... a general rule is still to be followed, unless it is in conflict with a specific rule, in which case the specific rule should take precedence.

This feat works just fine without having it break the general rule about learning spells, and therefore this rule is still in play, since it is not explicitly disabled.

But then, I've had this exact same debate, with Thanee in fact, before.

Bye
Thanee

 

[satori01]

...is generally used...

These words alone strongly imply, that the words following them do not provide extra rules, but an explanation to the previously stated rules (that the feat allows you to learn an extra spell). It's an attempt to explain why this feat does not totally suck for wizards (which it sure does, even with the explanation). And nothing else.



That still () seems to be a very lenient interpretation of the text to me, especially since the feat description doesn't say anything about that. And some rather drastic change in the basic rules surely would have been stated in a little more direct fashion.
They should have stated explicitly, that spells from prohibited schools are removed from the class spell list.
They should have stated explicitly, that Extra Spell allows you to learn one more spell from your class spell list.



Bye
Thanee

I would argue the line about Wizards and the general use of the feat for preparation casters is a clarification of the intent of the author. We all know the feat is insufficiently worded in terms of rigor, and explicitly stating the limits of what it can do. However assuming that line is not mere fluff, but an attempt to clarify the intent of the author, a "lenient interpretation" is a logical one, thorny, probably best ignored, but logical, else you are left arguing the intent of clarification was never intended when the author wrote the passage trying to clarify why a Wizard might take the feat, which is really tortured.

As for the obviousness of only being able to learn spells appearing on your own spell list...this gets somewhat muddied by the addition of latter classes like the Dread Necromancer and the Warmage. Both of those classes have lines in their spell casting description to the effect that Spells Known = Spell list. Of course this differs from a Sorc that theoretically could learn a spell not on his spell list, but then be unable to cast the spell he just learned because the Sorc can only cast spells from his spell list.

The feat is overall best for the Archivist class , as since all Divine spells are on the class spell list, this feat has value for the Archivist as a way to add Druid/Ranger/Paladin spells when they may not have access to those casters.

Practically speaking, I have let the feat be used by Specialist Wizards to learn a spell on their prohibited list, or to act a lesser Advanced Learning by Warmages etc...and it has been fine.

 

[Thanee]

I would argue the line about Wizards and the general use of the feat for preparation casters is a clarification of the intent of the author. We all know the feat is insufficiently worded in terms of rigor, and explicitly stating the limits of what it can do. However assuming that line is not mere fluff, but an attempt to clarify the intent of the author, a "lenient interpretation" is a logical one, thorny, probably best ignored, but logical, else you are left arguing the intent of clarification was never intended when the author wrote the passage trying to clarify why a Wizard might take the feat, which is really tortured.

There are several reasons (as stated above) which could lead (trick?) a wizard into taking this feat already, even without adding extra rules to it.

The most logical approach in interpreting a line of text is to have it work in the context already present, not by adding extra content to it. Only if the first fails, the latter should be considered.

Besides, it has already been cleared up from all available official sources, that the feat works as it has been said above. Always, each and every time the question came up; there never has been anything pointing to the opposite.

Practically speaking, I have let the feat be used by Specialist Wizards to learn a spell on their prohibited list, or to act a lesser Advanced Learning by Warmages etc...and it has been fine.

Nothing wrong with that. It's just not what the feat (officially) does, but it's not like that should prevent anyone from letting it do what they think it should do.

In this case, I agree with the rule, that it should not allow this, but there are plenty other cases, where I would also discard the official rule without a second thought.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

In order to make this feat worth taking for wizards, which I admit was not necessary to do, I allowed any spells learned through the feat to be treated as though under the effects of the Spell Mastery feat. After all, if you spend a feat to learn one spell, it's not such a stretch to treat it like a special ability, and not just another spell in the spellbook.