Failed promises

[Kae'Yoss]

Sounds like a kind of cheap group. If you're bearing the entire economic load for your group, then you have to ask whether the hobby is worth it, really. No marketing/production strategy can compensate for socially dysfunctional relationships. And "We all play, but I spend all the money," is a problem in of itself, not an excuse.





I've disliked books. I've never (as far as I can recall -- there may have been indiscretions when I was younger) complained about a book as if I was entitled to particular content. Neither of us are entitled to squat. Stop pretending that designers are duty bound to cater to your specific tastes and accept that as a consumer, it's *your* job to ensure that your tastes are compatible with the product you plan to buy.



Because the detail you spent on your comments indicated that you never needed to buy it in the first place to get the game you wanted.

Seems that this is going nowhere.

edit: I would welcome it if you wouldn't make assumptions about other people and then insult them. Thanks.

 

[The_Universe]

If you don't know anybody else who regularly buys gaming books, it would seem to me that you either have rather . . . exessively frugal . . . gamer friends or you just don't have other gamers around. If the former, then they're kind of sponging off you. If the latter, how can you game in the first place? I think it's fair to presuppose that gamers actually know other gamers who aren't total skinflints.

Then you apparently live in an alternate universe. I've been involved in *one* group, EVER, where everyone had the core book for the game. One. In every other circumstance, the DM buys books, everyone else sponges, unless they *really* want it. That's been my experience.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

Then you apparently live in an alternate universe. I've been involved in *one* group, EVER, where everyone had the core book for the game. One. In every other circumstance, the DM buys books, everyone else sponges, unless they *really* want it. That's been my experience.

We have several player's handbooks, and those who also DM have other books as well. But most just want one feat or two from other books, and I can understand that they won't buy a book for that.

I buy the books not to make them available to the gaming group, but to make them available for me, so even if another has book X, I'm getting it, too, if I want it.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Then you apparently live in an alternate universe. I've been involved in *one* group, EVER, where everyone had the core book for the game. One. In every other circumstance, the DM buys books, everyone else sponges, unless they *really* want it. That's been my experience.

Really?

Apparently, I'm also from that alternate The_Universe, because in every gaming group I've been in, every member's had their own set of core books (at least as far as D&D is concerned). The only exception are husband / wife teams who share a single set between them.

In my current campaign - d20 StarWars, just started this weeked - roughly 80% have the Core Rule book, and a few have some splatbooks, beside.

Are you sure you aren't the odd man out?

 

[Kanegrundar]

Sounds like a kind of cheap group. If you're bearing the entire economic load for your group, then you have to ask whether the hobby is worth it, really. No marketing/production strategy can compensate for socially dysfunctional relationships. And "We all play, but I spend all the money," is a problem in of itself, not an excuse.

Wow. YOu just don't stop do you? Once again you spout off at the mouth without knowing much of the reality. The reason I buy all the book is because I'm the primary DM. I set up the games, we tend to play whatever it is I want to play, and they tend to supply all the food and drinks. Plus, I don't buy any board games, the various member of my old group do that. It's a good trade off. I'm sure you'll disagree, but I could care less.

I've disliked books. I've never (as far as I can recall -- there may have been indiscretions when I was younger) complained about a book as if I was entitled to particular content. Neither of us are entitled to squat. Stop pretending that designers are duty bound to cater to your specific tastes and accept that as a consumer, it's *your* job to ensure that your tastes are compatible with the product you plan to buy.

Where did I EVER say that I was entitled to a particular content? All I've ever stated is why I disliked the book and what I thought would have made it better. There's NOTHING wrong with that. In fact, it's pretty common in society to do so in everything for books to movies to games to sports. Designers are not duty bound to cater to my desires, but they should attempt to please the public instead doing so increases their sales. If a publisher doesn't hear why people dislike a book, then they will never understand why they don't sell more copies. It's up to them to either ignore, defend their positions, or modify their design philosophy to garner more sales.

Because the detail you spent on your comments indicated that you never needed to buy it in the first place to get the game you wanted.

The only game close to the GW experience was Darwin's World 2. It did a good job, but there were still plenty of holes to fill, holes that were left empty until D20 Future and Apocalypse came out. There were holes in the GW experience that GW tried to fill, but failed miserably at. I can get past the exclusion of some elements like mutant animals and plants, but they failed to deliver a good gaming experience. So I have to look elsewhere to get my GW-experience fix.

Maybe that's the real issue here. You really like the new GWPHB and got your feathers ruffled by my comments. I see a lot of complaints about other products in a very similar vein as mine, but yet you focus on the ones made against GW. That's fine that you like it so much, but don't get angry with those that thought it was less than stellar.

Kane

 

[Kanegrundar]

Then you apparently live in an alternate universe. I've been involved in *one* group, EVER, where everyone had the core book for the game. One. In every other circumstance, the DM buys books, everyone else sponges, unless they *really* want it. That's been my experience.

That's been my experience as well. The only game I've played in in which other people had the core book other than me was a Revised Star Wars campaign. Otherwise, I buy the books since I tend to DM. Like I said before others buy most of the new boardgames that we play and supply the food. It works for me.

Kane

 

[Henry]

Sounds like a kind of cheap group. If you're bearing the entire economic load for your group, then you have to ask whether the hobby is worth it, really. No marketing/production strategy can compensate for socially dysfunctional relationships.

Eyebeams, I take umbrage myself at your comment. Because a group doesn't have a lot of members who regularly buy gaming books, then the hobby isn't worth it? That's a seriously flawed character judgment. Feel free to speak for your own experience, but it doesn't apply to everyone here.

I've had plenty of books that have disappointed me after buying them, but I don't fault the makers of the books. I do have access to ENWorld and RPGNet Reviews, to excerpts by the publishers, and word of mouth, as well as return policies to the stores I buy from. However, it doesn't change if a book IS a disappointment to me, and if a book disappoints a large segment of those who bought it, it just isn't plausible to chalk all of it up to simple failure to "Caveat Emptor." Sometimes, there are books that are rushed, have production problems, or JUST PLAIN BAD premises. I can't think of many, but I do know it's too big a field for this not to be true.

RE: Gamma World:
I dowloaded the free-limited-time Player's Guide from DTRPG a while back. The SSS GW just did not capture the feel I came to expect from Gamma World, despite that I like Bruce, and I think he's a good author. It's a book and genre that was specifically made for that "aging segment" of gamer populace you criticized Erik Mona for serving, yet I don't feel it served the purpose it should have, instead trying to attract an audience that wouldn't have an interest in it.

 

[eyebeams]

Eyebeams, I take umbrage myself at your comment. Because a group doesn't have a lot of members who regularly buy gaming books, then the hobby isn't worth it? That's a seriously flawed character judgment. Feel free to speak for your own experience, but it doesn't apply to everyone here.

I stand by my comment. Obviously, not everybody is going to buy in with as much frequency, but that isn't the same as being to sole purchaser. It's:

1) Not fair to the person who buys the books.

2) Increases hassle at the table.

3) reduces the amount of variety.

4) Gives too much authority and responsibility to the person buying the books.

To wit: A group where one person buys all the books is not, in my view, a healthy gaming group. Heck, I'll go farther and say that groups where one person is constantly GMing is usually somewhat problematic as well.

I've had plenty of books that have disappointed me after buying them, but I don't fault the makers of the books. I do have access to ENWorld and RPGNet Reviews, to excerpts by the publishers, and word of mouth, as well as return policies to the stores I buy from. However, it doesn't change if a book IS a disappointment to me, and if a book disappoints a large segment of those who bought it, it just isn't plausible to chalk all of it up to simple failure to "Caveat Emptor."

That's not the entire issue, which also has to do with fans feeling that they are entitled to input in the creative process. They aren't. It has to do with sentimental feelings and the urge to collect skewing sales, which has ended up being a short term boon for some companies, but a long term burden for everyone. If a fan buys everything for a line or a brand, good or bad, it promotes products that further alienate the broad base of gamers.

I often ask folks to look at the comics industry to see what problems can/do come up in gaming. Comics appeased fans and satisfied collectibility to the nth degree, causing the comics industry to violently implode in the 1990s.

I'm certainly not saying reviews are worthless. I'm saying the fannish idea of playing at what a property is "really" about is categorically mistaken. The property is "really" about whatever is designed for it. If you think it sucks, the property in of itself should not be ammunition for further grief, and it shouldn't compel you to buy into it anyway.

Sometimes, there are books that are rushed, have production problems, or JUST PLAIN BAD premises. I can't think of many, but I do know it's too big a field for this not to be true.

Production problems are a different issue. If there's a misprint, that's not the same thing as whether or not the book appeals to your private fantasies about a game.

As for being rushed: 90% of game books fit that description. The fact that games are cheap, gamers are rare and few people make a lot of money at this compels publishers to churn out product at the very limit of their capacity.

I dowloaded the free-limited-time Player's Guide from DTRPG a while back. The SSS GW just did not capture the feel I came to expect from Gamma World, despite that I like Bruce, and I think he's a good author. It's a book and genre that was specifically made for that "aging segment" of gamer populace you criticized Erik Mona for serving, yet I don't feel it served the purpose it should have, instead trying to attract an audience that wouldn't have an interest in it.

I didn't criticize Erik Mona at all, except perhaps to say that I suspect that the sample of readers is skewed. The SSS GW was not, as far as I know, entirely designed for folks who remember the original (leaving aside my opinion that people's recollections of what Gamma World was like and about are so severely skewed as to be non-fact). In fact, the terms of the license made that flat out impossible. But as far as I know, nobody's written long laments about WotC forcing one of their own properties to divert from its origin.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

Are you sure you aren't the odd man out?

Nope. It's the same here. Can't remember a single group where everyone hand the core book.

Some games, I was amongst those who didn't have the rules.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Nope. It's the same here. Can't remember a single group where everyone hand the core book.

Weird.