Failed promises

[Kanegrundar]

I wasn't a big fan of the original D20 Star Wars (even though I bought it). I thought the revision was pretty cool, though. Anybody else feel that way?

I felt the same way. It was OK, but not nearly as good as the Revised edition. Starship combat could have been better still, but WotC has yet to do that aspect of sci-fi gaming right yet.

Kane

 

[eyebeams]

So, I guess there are books that some people found disappointing after they bought them (or, in some cases, just while they were flipping through them at the store). Does ANYBODY want to talk about that? I mean besides me.

Sure. This thread was actually about this numinous thing called "potential" and how a book "promised" it, but didn't deliver.

And it would be really cool if we could talk about it without eyebeams blasting us with his righteous consumer wisdom, because he has apparently NEVER PURCHASED ANYTHING that was anything other than perfectly satisfactory. I mean, I appreciate his attempts to enlighten us, but this is getting retardiculous (yes, i just made up that word).

Sure I have. Everybody makes mistakes. What I object to is the position that people have no responsibility for their own spending habits -- a position articulated in this very thread. If you buy a piece of garbage on impulse, you do yourself and the hobby a disservice. You own something you don't like; the company notices that you bought it, and that's more important to them than your feelings about it.

What really surprises me is that it is so important to a minority of gamers to feel victimized by a company or product that it angers them to be told that they *could* actually make a difference and save their money, to boot. They would rather buy, complain, and buy, and complain again.

I wasn't a big fan of the original D20 Star Wars (even though I bought it). I thought the revision was pretty cool, though. Anybody else feel that way?

I don't like the way AoO changes the feel of Star Wars combat, myself, but the class builds were, in my opinion, superior. I think a version of SW that came out now would be much better, since D20 design has matured quite a bit.

 

[diaglo]

I felt the same way. It was OK, but not nearly as good as the Revised edition. Starship combat could have been better still, but WotC has yet to do that aspect of sci-fi gaming right yet.

Kane

i prefer a modified Freedom in the Galaxy boxed set use for starship combat.

 

[Belen]

I have mentioned it before, but Dragonlords of Melnibourne was a bad purchase.

I also regret buying the Quintessenital books from Mongoose. The mechanics are not sound, although the Bard and Monk ones were fairly decent.

Planar Handbook: It was not any good.
Deities and Demigods: I wanted a 3e Legends and Lore, but got...deity stats!? WTF?!
Epic Level: Just did not make me feel epic. It was just more combat options with nasty creatures and gear.

 

[Kanegrundar]

i prefer a modified Freedom in the Galaxy boxed set use for starship combat.

I never picked up that set. How easy was it to modify?

Kane

 

[The_Universe]

I felt the same way. It was OK, but not nearly as good as the Revised edition. Starship combat could have been better still, but WotC has yet to do that aspect of sci-fi gaming right yet.

Kane

I just think that 3D combat is hard to do in a game. Making it miniatures dependent makes it essentially 2D, since it's all happening on a tabletop, but it does make things a little easier to manage. Make it abstract enough to include the 3rd dimension, and you run into the problems that the non-revised edition, because it ends up being *too* abstract.

You almost need to have an entirely seperate game if you want to reflect space combat in a way that parallels the film entirely perfectly. I think it's just a problem with space combat, not with any game entirely. I've never played an RPG that did it particularly well. Some are better than others, but, at best, they get to "passable" for me.

My problem with the non-revised core rules is that they seemed really lifeless (the classes seemed boring in a lot of cases), and they failed to fill some of the important archetypes that appear in the films. It wasn't a horrible book, and it *looked* really nice. It just wasn't a particularly thrilling game. Revised still isn't perfect, but it's definitely better.

 

[Gnarlo]

i prefer a modified Freedom in the Galaxy boxed set use for starship combat.

Whoah, D, that's something I haven't drug off my shelves and opened in 15 years, thanks for reminding me I have it. I'll have to open it up and re-read the combat section.

 

[GVDammerung]

I bought Gamma World d20 sight unseen because I am a FAN of the older versions. . . . When it did not live up to my expectations then I have a right to not like it.

Well said.

In an earlier post, I mentioned "canon." I don't want to put words in your mouth but I think that is what you are talking about. There is a GW canon and you anticipated that any product with a GW title would adhere, more or less, to that canon, absent perhaps some reason to deviate from it. When what you purchased deviated from your canon expectations without sufficient explanation or substitution, you were disappointed. Please forgive me if I am misreading you.

If the canon of Setting X says the sky is blue and writer declares the sky orange, without explanation, both the product and writer may be legitimately criticized by fans of Setting X, who expected the sky to be blue (ie the party assenting to the unexplained deviation from canon).

Arguably, the purchaser could have discovered the deviation and not purchased the product but that is not the only legitimate option. Feedback is fundamentally legitimate. And fans follow their favorite setting, through good and bad times. I have heard this referred to as "The BOS Factor." BOS = Buy On Sight. I would argue that it is this very devotion that animates the hobby and that the hobby would be poorer if fewer gamers did not feel so strongly about their favorite settings or products.

So what to do when you BOS a product and it turns out that it deviates from canon without explaination? You complain! And you don't have to hide your head when you do so! And you do not have to be made to feel silly because you didn't look first, or having looked, still BOSed because you are a fan of the setting.

I imagine every game publisher would kill to produce nothing but material judged to be BOS products by consumers; TSR used to call them "must haves." It is disingenuous to imagine otherwise as publishers are in the business of selling product and BOS products have a guaranteed sales base.

 

[diaglo]

I never picked up that set. How easy was it to modify?

very easy. do a net search for some ideas still used today. here is an example: http://www.thewargamer.com/FreedomInTheGalaxy.html

 

[eyebeams]

Well that’s the rub. I am not trying to defend myself from your snide personal attacks on my buying habits. What does it matter to you if I dislike a certain book?

Does this mean that designer should ignore what you have to say completely, then? I thought people here were rooting for the opposite. All I'm saying that there *is* a more effective way for you to exert influence.

Do I have to give a complete critique and ways to fix some book that I happen to dislike? No!

Did I say you did? Nope. But it's a fact that the sophistication of a criticism is what determines its merits. You can say anything you like, buy rants about how something stinks carry less weight than a John Cooper review.

Plus in no way is my stating that I dislike a book a personal attack or insult to the writers, editors, or publishers of said book. And I am sorry that anyone feels that it is.

This isn't even topical.

I bought Gamma World d20 sight unseen because I am a FAN of the older versions. If that makes me a hick or stupid your eyes then that's your opinion.

It wasn't a good purchasing decision, no.

When it did not live up to my expectations then I have a right to not like it. I am sorry that if by voicing my said dislike that I have offended anyone. That was not my plan or intention.

You ought to ask yourself what the basis for your expectations were. That's all I'm saying, If you don't take the time to find out, there's a good chance you might not get what you're looking for. That's your risk to take. But don't pretend you were "promised" anything that wasn't in adcopy or similar buzz.

But to bash me because I bought a book unseen is just plain mean and elitist on your part.

Do you really feel that the fact that I don't think people should buy sight unseen, and you did, personally offensive? Is it really "elitist" to believe that people ought to actually think about what they buy?