I can guarantee you that your thousands of pages of Realms notes do not make it more 'involved' than my Apocalypse World, which features a map which we can all see, with notes that anyone can add to and a list of names of all the NPCs we've met.
Because involvement comes at the table. And only at the table. The lonely fun of reading bad fanfic dressed up as 'background' and dreaming how much fun it's going to be to surprise the players with it, is often presented as a 'living breathing world'. But that's nonsense.
A living breathing world only happens at the table, and only if the players care. And if you've let them build it, given them a stake, they care. Put me or any of my players in 'The Realms' and none of us could give a monkeys. Unless I can have my own bar in a town called Bad Fanficville.
And if you read a game like The Dresden Files you'll see how to build a multi-layered, complex and dynamic setting filled with interesting characters in conflict with each other and how everyone knowing about it enhances the game. Because when everyone knows - that's part of the game. Secrets are not gameplay.
I think this is the real point. And a lot of D&D players, especially GMs, are the same. They love the prep. They love the reading. They love the imagining. All that is great. None of it is the game. The game is what is shared at the table.
[MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION] was making exactly these points about 'living breathing worlds' not aligning with pre-authorship. They can be created in the moment, and be beautiful, poignant, deep and complex. It's okay to not believe me, but it's true.
OK, first I will say that my experience in games like you are referring to is very, very limited. I'm also well aware that some youtube play-throughs are not representative of most sessions of any game.
And I also won't say you're entirely wrong. My bad fanfic that's a combination of published bad fanfic and home-made bad fanfic probably isn't better or worse than the bad fanfic developed by committee in the course of gameplay in the games that you are referring to. I have no illusions that I am anymore than an amateur hack stealing liberally and putting together stories and campaigns for my own enjoyment as much as the players.
There is a ton of stuff that I think of or write that will never go any farther than the screen I'm currently typing. But part of what I like, that I don't see how it would ever come together in a game like that is the multi-layered depth of the world I'm working with. I'm not saying it's better, it's just different. Details and things that admittedly the majority of my players don't even care about, but it's those very details that make the world seem alive to me. Many of those details we probably could put together in a game like Dungeon World.
My last major campaign ran for over 8 years with the same core characters, with ever more complex threads of stories that intertwined over years of the character's lives. Each local they visited (and I followed them as the DM, I didn't lead them), had a flavor and feel of their own. Largely due to the work of others, with me layering on top. After a while, by mentioning a name, description, etc. they knew where they were, even if they just stepped through a portal to an unknown destination.
And I did say that I'm sure it's possible to do something similar in the games you're playing, but I don't think it would be possible with the way my brain works, and the speed my brain works, along with the group(s) I've played with. A large number of the people I play with are new to the game, and it takes a while to get them to be comfortable with really fleshing out a character, much less a world.
I also think it's easier to maintain consistency of a sort in this manner, not to mention I'm the only one that's really OCD enough to spend many hours between sessions thinking, and often writing.
You're right, a lot of what I do is not the game, it's another hobby related to the game. But it comes alive in the game, and because of the way my brain works, that works well for me. I also love tweaking the rules, theorizing about the game. I've only met one or two people over the years that share the same excitement in all levels of the game and RPGs in general. There are certainly a lot of really interesting people here and on the net, and I would love if some of them lived nearby. Well, maybe, I really don't have the time for that!
Secrets are not gameplay. Discovering secrets, and unraveling them at the table is gameplay, and often very exciting gameplay. Sure it's not the only one, but it is a component that we really like. I like to be surprised by my players (and I am frequently), and they like to be surprised by me. I don't write the plots, I don't write the adventures, they do that.
There are multiple ways to make the players care, and I do work to ensure that they have a stake in the story, they write more of it than they realize, and I think it's very important for them to feel like they are part of that world. They have a direct hand in writing how they fit into the world, with my help to tie it into the greater world. The bad (published) fanfic gives us all a common element so we are on the same page. Just like if you play in Middle Earth, or the Star Wars or Star Trek universes. We all know certain things about the world that makes it feel more real.
They meet a merchant from Baldur's Gate, and that means something to them. Not because I tell them there's a city named Baldur's Gate and all of their characters know about it, and they go along with it because I said they all know about it, but because they actually know about it. When one of the player's character says that they are a cleric of Ilmater, they don't have to explain what that means, or how it fits into the pantheon, or how others in the world react to that or feel about it. They already know. The bard tells us that she's particularly fond of zzar and a hunk of Elturian gray, we're all on the same page. That's the sort of depth that I'm talking about.
And you're absolutely right, a lot of D&D players and DMs are the same. We learned from the same sources, with the same concept. And I don't pretend to be more than I am. I'm sure that in the arc of RPGs I'm in a pretty save, relatively conservative place. It's certainly not cutting edge, but I also think it's a place where there is still a lot of great gaming to be had. That the art form, as it is, has yet to be perfected and that it's a worthy pursuit within the realm of RPGs. Perhaps as I incorporate more of what I learn from places like here, and maybe meeting new people by running public games, that I'll grow into something more complex, or more abstract, or more of a shared-world approach, or whatever. I just don't know, and won't know until I get there. But for the moment I think that what I'm most interested in is learning more about how to do better at what I already love to do. And have loved for 30+ years. The thing that makes me want to spend crazy-stupid amounts of time thinking about it, writing about it, talking about it, and so on.
And this is not even my 'primary hobby' and competes with family, a job, and two businesses along with my primary hobby, which is also one of my businesses. I can also say that over the years I have played many, many different RPGs. Now the newer crop have some great innovations and new approaches, but regardless of what I've tried, I always keep coming back to the Forgotten Realms in D&D. It's what most excites me, and I'm happy to share my enthusiasm within that framework with whomever wants to come along with me. I'm not really concerned about whether my Realms is more involved than somebody else's game, or anything of that nature. I just don't see how I can arrive at what I love with those systems with the people I know and have access to.
I guess more importantly is that if I started a Dungeon World campaign, I'd spend most of the time trying to make it feel like the D&D that I know and love. Which is kind of pointless.
Ilbranteloth