Failing to meet prestige class requirements

[Staffan]

For what it's worth, I use a houserule that all Supernatural (Su) and Spell-like (Sp) abilities granted by a PrC are lost if the prerequisites are lost, but any Extraordinary (Ex) or "mundane" abilities (including BAB, HP, Skills, Saves, Spellcasting [if it's +1 to existing], and even bonus feats, etc.) are kept. In no case can a character take a level of a PrC (first or otherwise) if he does not meet the prerequisites when it's time to level up.

That sounds like a good starting point, with modifications for specific circumstances and with the caveat that if you lose the prereq due to abilities of the prestige class itself (e.g. half-dragon), you don't lose abilities because of that.

 

[Mistwell]

Personally, I think it makes complete sense for you to lose those feats. They are granted to you because you have dedicated yourself to the Shadow Weave, and Shar allows you to use her weave in a particular way.

When you become good, you are naturally opposed to everything Shar wants. Accordingly, she doesn't let you use her weave any more.

First, Shadow Weave Magic is a feat my character already has. It has no alignment requirement, just Wisdom 15 (or worship of Shar). So, my character already can use her weave under the rules with a good alignment and a Wisdom of 15.

Second, the feats in question can already be taken invdividually without the alignment requirement. So, it's not like the use of these feats is tied to a non-good alignment. Just the means of acquiring 3 of the 4 feats through the prestige class.

Third, wouldn't Shar WANT my character to use those 3 feats, to draw me back to the dark side? Shouldn't the choice to use those feats, and risk my alignment, be a character choice here, and not a rules mechanic?

 

[IcyCool]

Shouldn't the choice to use those feats, and risk my alignment, be a character choice here, and not a rules mechanic?

Should? This is the rules forum, we argue is and isn't. Except when regarding the FAQ, which just shouldn't be used.

 

[Mistwell]

Should? This is the rules forum, we argue is and isn't. Except when regarding the FAQ, which just shouldn't be used.

First, I was responding to someone who said "It makes sense because..." which was not a rules but a "should" discussion.

Second, given it's not in the core rules, but just mentioned in an expansion in a way that potentially contradicts the core "at time of entry only" issue, the rule is being debated. So discussion of what the rule SHOULD be can be helpful in deciding what the rule IS, if it can shine light on things like rules-writers intent.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

First, Shadow Weave Magic is a feat my character already has. It has no alignment requirement, just Wisdom 15 (or worship of Shar). So, my character already can use her weave under the rules with a good alignment and a Wisdom of 15.

Second, the feats in question can already be taken invdividually without the alignment requirement. So, it's not like the use of these feats is tied to a non-good alignment. Just the means of acquiring 3 of the 4 feats through the prestige class.

Exactly. If you want to discover them through study you undertake yourself, feel free to take the feats. If you want the quick road to power, Shar wants a little more from you. When you stop giving Shar what she wants, she stops giving you what you need.

Third, wouldn't Shar WANT my character to use those 3 feats, to draw me back to the dark side?

Don't know. Why don't you ask her?

 

[IcyCool]

First, I was responding to someone who said "It makes sense because..." which was not a rules but a "should" discussion.

Second, given it's not in the core rules, but just mentioned in an expansion in a way that potentially contradicts the core "at time of entry only" issue, the rule is being debated. So discussion of what the rule SHOULD be can be helpful in deciding what the rule IS, if it can shine light on things like rules-writers intent.

Mistwell, I was just poking a little fun. My comment wasn't intended as anything else. Sorry for the pollution.

 

[Mistwell]

Exactly. If you want to discover them through study you undertake yourself, feel free to take the feats. If you want the quick road to power, Shar wants a little more from you. When you stop giving Shar what she wants, she stops giving you what you need.



Don't know. Why don't you ask her?

Shar is not mentioned in the prestige class, except to say that Clerics who enter the class worship Shar. There is no mention that Shar grants the powers of the prestige class, that worshipping Shar is in the requirements, that Shar is related to the class abilities, or anything else like that. There are no Knowledge (Religion) ranks required by the prestige class even. The quick road to power doesn't appear to be through Shar for this prestige class.

So, I ask again, why would one lose the feats granted by the Prestige Class if their alignment changes long after they entered the class and gained the feats? What's the logic in that?

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Shar is not mentioned in the prestige class,

Other than the fact that you're using the Shadow Weave, you mean? Shar controls the Shadow Weave - it's her creation. She may allow or prohibit access to it on a whim, in a way that Mystra cannot.

The feats you mention allow you to draw upon the Shadow Weave to affect your own spells. As such, you may only do so with the explicit permission of Shar.

 

[Mistwell]

Other than the fact that you're using the Shadow Weave, you mean? Shar controls the Shadow Weave - it's her creation. She may allow or prohibit access to it on a whim, in a way that Mystra cannot.

The feats you mention allow you to draw upon the Shadow Weave to affect your own spells. As such, you may only do so with the explicit permission of Shar.

And, like I said, you access the shadow weave with or without the prestige class. To get in, you have to have Shadow Weave Magic as a feat. When your alignment changes, you STILL access the Shadow Weave when casting spells. So, it's clearly NOT a permission of Shar thing, as Shar still gives permission to use the Shadow Weave regardless of your alignment.

I really think this is a case of coming to a personal conclusion about the rules, and then backing into a role playing expanation of why the rules would work that way. It should be done the other way around. If there is doubt about the rules, you should follow the more logical role playing and intent reasons. You shouldn't just become a moving target, throwing any possible role playing reasons against the wall until you find one that sticks in supports your personal interpretation of the rules.

 

[Hypersmurf]

So, I ask again, why would one lose the feats granted by the Prestige Class if their alignment changes long after they entered the class and gained the feats?

Because it's a class feature that isn't hit dice, BAB, or saves?

Why can a lawful barbarian not rage?

-Hyp.