Fairness Point-Buy and rolls other than stats

[cptg1481]

I can totally understand the theory of the point-buy system of creating characters and its inherent fairness; however, I don’t understand how this thirst for fairness has not spilled over into the other random variables of the game.

I ask a general question; why is it acceptable to absolutely suspend the randomness of game variables generation and the inherent “luck” associated with their creation in the name of “fairness”, while once the character creation process is completed, the suspension of “fairness” is willingly shelved until needed in the future creation of characters?

I guess I feel that the character creation process is fair regardless of the method used as long as the same standard method is used for all involved. Is this faulty or untrue? Now I’ll admit that all of the characters created using “random” methods will not be truly “equal” in terms of stats but they were (depending on your DM I guess) created using a fair method of creation applied evenly to all players.

I don’t suppose that anyone will ever change my mind about point-buy methods and I don’t want to attack anyone’s preferences here I’d just like to hear the logic behind the “all character’s must be created with the same stat potential” theory.

I mean I guess that to me life’s not fair, I’ll never play linebacker for the Bear’s and perhaps said linebacker will never appreciate the fine art of interrogation (my specialty). I don’t know where this is going but I have a few questions for the hard-core point buyers out there.

1. After creating these “fair” characters with identical potential why do you then accept the “unfairness” of rolling dice at all?

I mean why not simply give everyone “points” to spend applied to the median roll of the each appropriate die with a weighted scale towards the higher rolls like when generating characters.

I mean instead of rolling a D20 to hit and such why not just give everyone a “to-hit” (along with skills, damage pools etc.) pool and let him or her decide how and when to “spend” these points.

Its the ultimate in game fairness, no randomness, all characters would have the same potential for success.

Wouldn’t this truly make the game more “fair”.... I mean there would be no more “hey, man that’s the third 20 you rolled tonight bill, your guy is kicking butt, but I’m rolling all 3's”.

Imagine it would take all one-upmanship out of the game, in addition to being equal in the creation stage which takes away character envy, why not take away all envy no more will one guys character succeed more than another they'd be identically successfull, or at least potentially based upon how they choose

We’d all have the same potential for success and have equal characters. It would limit the differences between characters and therefore make the game more fair.

I guess the game would be more role-playing intensive if this envy were removed. would be how we “spend” it?

2. I guess the bottom line is why is one set of randomness OK and the other not?

Disclaimer: I only seek clarity here it is not an attack on you or the way you like to play our hobby. I will not respond to any flame wars. If you care to respond cool if not cool too I just want to hear some input from those who think or play this way. It probably won’t change how I play…I m just curious.

 

[Mark]

Point buy character generation is just a way to streamline character generation so that players will have characters they wish to play (or feel comfortable playing) and DMs will have characters that can likely survive in the campaign without being over-powering. It really isn't that much to do with some sort of fairness. It's a time consideration device so you can quickly get to the randomness of the game, IMO.

 

[boschdevil]

For me, it all boils down to fairness with respect to a base (character) versus an encounter situation.

You want to have everyone to start at an equal or fair base so that (a) one character isn't taking over the campaign with respect to the other character and (b) some that the DM can create obstacles that will be a challenge for all characters in the party.

However, once the party is established and the DM has created the campaign, then the randomness combat/saving throw die rolls can come into being, and if you roll poorly, then you roll poorly.

In essence, everyone started off with an even chance with their characters. That is all anyone can ask for, and that is what point buy gives you.

 

[333 Dave]

There's a quote that was on a poster in one of my history classes a while back that went something like "When I say everyone gets a fair deal, I don't mean every has the same hand, just that there's no crookedness in the dealing." I think it was one of the Roosevelts that said it. I'm not sure what this has to do with the topic, but I agree with it (as a DM I use random generated chars).

 

[Hejdun]

I mean I guess that to me life’s not fair, I’ll never play linebacker for the Bear’s and perhaps said linebacker will never appreciate the fine art of interrogation (my specialty).

But what if you had no specialty? None at all. In fact, even normal shmoes off the street at better at you in a random field.

Randomized stats are just too random for me. If you had a game where one character rolls a 18, 17, 18, 16, 18, 14 and another rolls a 6, 9, 11, 5, 13, 8, how much fun do you really think the second player will have when he is so drastically weak? The first guy can basically beat the second at anything, probably even the second guy's specialty. That's the main point, the second guy has no reason to be there. Sure, role-playing might even the field a little, but still, the first guy is guaranteed to have a higher charisma than you.

This is a game, and the point of a game is to have fun. There are few people who would agree that playing a character that is outshadowed in everything is very fun. Heck, why do you think that bards are hated so much? They are outshadowed by another person in basically everything they do. Great, he can heal! But the cleric heals a lot better. He can fight! The fighter is much better than he is though. He can cast spells! Too bad they are a lot worse than a wizard's. He can be sneaky! He still gets trumped by the rogue though.

The reason I don't like randomness when rolling stats but don't mind it in other situations is because an imbalance in the stats will imbalance just about everything in the game. In other situations, yeah, you win some and you lose some. If you lose while you are generating stats, then you will lose every session you play that character in.

 

[Cedric]

Point buy is nice...but I feel left out if I don't roll the dice!

Ok, stupid rhymes with bad cadence aside. I seriously do not feel like I've gotten what I desire out of my D&D experience if I don't roll the dice for stats.

If I wanted a point buy system, I'd play Hero.

Greg

 

[Ravellion]

Randomized stats are just too random for me. If you had a game where one character rolls a 18, 17, 18, 16, 18, 14 and another rolls a 6, 9, 11, 5, 13, 8, how much fun do you really think the second player will have when he is so drastically weak? The first guy can basically beat the second at anything, probably even the second guy's specialty. That's the main point, the second guy has no reason to be there. Sure, role-playing might even the field a little, but still, the first guy is guaranteed to have a higher charisma than you.

The DM does have to step in every now and then (ie stats too low or too high? Reroll!).

I think someone posted a large collection of point buy character's stats on here not too long ago. The character's stats were all predictable and boring. 14 Con, 8 Cha, unless they are Paladins or Sorcerers.

Which is why it is Organic characters for me! (ie. Roll in order)

 

[Buttercup]

The reason I don't like randomness when rolling stats but don't mind it in other situations is because an imbalance in the stats will imbalance just about everything in the game. In other situations, yeah, you win some and you lose some. If you lose while you are generating stats, then you will lose every session you play that character in.

That pretty much sums up my feelings.

It isn't a question of fairness. It's just that I don't think randomness improves the character creation process. If they can build the characters they envision, I think players have more fun. Let me give you an extreme example of random generation. I know a DM who uses 4d6, drop the lowest, and makes players take the rolls *in order*. So if you are rolling up a wizard, say, and you get an intelligence of 7, you are screwed. Can't even cast spells. Boy, howdy, that's gonna be a fun character to play, eh? No thanks.

Random rolling of stats is fine for a one-shot, but if I'm creating a character I hope to play for a while, I'd like him or her to have exactly the stats that are part of my character concept.

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

I favor point buy for character generation because it guarantees each player equal starting potential. A good roll at character generation affects the entire game for the life of that character -- too great an impact IMO.

After character generation, though, player decisions and dice determines what occurs -- it's up to the player to make the most of the potential they started with.

If we wanted a completely "fair" system (non-random) we could just go diceless, and substitute a 10 or 11 for every d20 roll, and so on.

 

[Geoff Watson]

Ability scores are much more important than an individual attack roll or skill check.

The ability scores will remain with the character permanently, and unfair methods will remain unfair for the rest of the campaign.

Geoff.