Fairness Point-Buy and rolls other than stats
- Thread starter cptg1481
- Start date
One DM of old used a random generation, but after everyone had rolled anyone could use anyone else's die rolls. Of course, this was generally a high powered game, but you could develop an easy enough system, like have every PC pick one other PC. That "team" can use each other's scores (one the other, not pick and choose stats), or some-such variant.
For myself, I have played a lot of point-buy since 3e came out, and I am at the point where I would be more comfortable picking stats for my characters without point-buy or random generation. I trust in myself to create an interesting character with flaws and strengths. Not that I expect this would work for everyone, and in someone else's game, I would want the DM to make sure I was on the correct power curve.
Technik
For myself, I have played a lot of point-buy since 3e came out, and I am at the point where I would be more comfortable picking stats for my characters without point-buy or random generation. I trust in myself to create an interesting character with flaws and strengths. Not that I expect this would work for everyone, and in someone else's game, I would want the DM to make sure I was on the correct power curve.
Technik
Ravellion
serves Gnome Master
Normally with the organic method you do allow one switch, exactly because they don't want you to have a Wizard with 7 Int.
I think I'd sooner go to pregenerated PCs than back to PB. Monks and psions are unfairly penalised by PB anyway: try and build a decent human Nomad or Shaper who still has powers to choose from at level 10.
I think I'd sooner go to pregenerated PCs than back to PB. Monks and psions are unfairly penalised by PB anyway: try and build a decent human Nomad or Shaper who still has powers to choose from at level 10.
Saeviomagy
Adventurer
Wow, that point-buy-every-roll-in-the-game system sure sounds interesting. I'd love to play in a game like that. Imagine - people holding off on certain critters, so they've got some good rolls left for the BBEG. Players taking the minimum damage on their weapon, because they reckon the bad guy's just about to go down anyway...
Having randomly rolled stats is the equivalent of letting one guy use a d25, while another guy is stuck with a d18 or a d16 for every roll. Beyond that, what if I roll an entire run of good stats, but want my character to be a clutz? Or I didn't want a specialist (ie a character with one great stat and a bunch of bad ones). Or I DID want a specialist, or whatever? If the game really relies on your stats (ie - is more about skills and fighting than roleplaying and planning), then a character who just happens to roll low may as well kill himself when he starts out.
As for life not being fair... chances are if you work hard, you'll be able to succeed at whatever you want (barring really exceptional circumstances) but at the cost of other abilities. Point buy reflects that.
I think pure rolling is appropriate for raw hackfests, where the characters themselves don't really matter, and death is common. A survival of the fittest principle comes into play. But for a modern RPG where you're expected to become attached to your PC, I don't think it's a good idea.
As for everyone having the same set of stats... that's a problem with your game and the players. If charisma is useless, YOUR GAME makes it useless, and makes putting points into it a waste.
Having randomly rolled stats is the equivalent of letting one guy use a d25, while another guy is stuck with a d18 or a d16 for every roll. Beyond that, what if I roll an entire run of good stats, but want my character to be a clutz? Or I didn't want a specialist (ie a character with one great stat and a bunch of bad ones). Or I DID want a specialist, or whatever? If the game really relies on your stats (ie - is more about skills and fighting than roleplaying and planning), then a character who just happens to roll low may as well kill himself when he starts out.
As for life not being fair... chances are if you work hard, you'll be able to succeed at whatever you want (barring really exceptional circumstances) but at the cost of other abilities. Point buy reflects that.
I think pure rolling is appropriate for raw hackfests, where the characters themselves don't really matter, and death is common. A survival of the fittest principle comes into play. But for a modern RPG where you're expected to become attached to your PC, I don't think it's a good idea.
As for everyone having the same set of stats... that's a problem with your game and the players. If charisma is useless, YOUR GAME makes it useless, and makes putting points into it a waste.
Desdichado
Hero
1) It has nothing to do with fairness, it has to do with fun. A character that is markedly weaker than another character isn't much fun. I once had a DM (not long ago) that gave wizards and sorcerors even more power because he thought they should be powerful and scary. My character, a more basic rogue, wasn't much fun to play after a while, because what I could contribute to the game was relatively weak. Granted, some of that may be me, because I wasn't an optimizer and some of the rest of the guys were, but I can tell you first hand -- it's not very fun to play the character who never gets a chance to shine. From the other side of the table, it's also difficult to balance things out if you've got characters that are noticably weaker or noticably stronger than average.
2) Your example is extreme hyperbole (and I suspect you know that quite well.) Not rolling any dice would be silly -- the point of the game is to create tension by potentially failing even occasionally would-be simple tasks, or spectacularly exceeding seemingly impossible ones. For that, dice are absolutely essential. Dice at character creation and dice in play are completely different paradigms and to say that just because someone prefers more control of character creation by using point buy (or some other such method) doesn't have anything to do with using dice in game. In fact, to suggest so is somewhat disingenious, IMO. The applications are completely different. Your analogy is like asking me why, if I don't use Excel to play computer games, do I want to use it to do my household budget? How can that be fair to Excel?
2) Your example is extreme hyperbole (and I suspect you know that quite well.) Not rolling any dice would be silly -- the point of the game is to create tension by potentially failing even occasionally would-be simple tasks, or spectacularly exceeding seemingly impossible ones. For that, dice are absolutely essential. Dice at character creation and dice in play are completely different paradigms and to say that just because someone prefers more control of character creation by using point buy (or some other such method) doesn't have anything to do with using dice in game. In fact, to suggest so is somewhat disingenious, IMO. The applications are completely different. Your analogy is like asking me why, if I don't use Excel to play computer games, do I want to use it to do my household budget? How can that be fair to Excel?
Aust Diamondew
First Post
Hmm...
I can see the advantages of both point buy and random stat generation however theres nothin' like sitting down and rolling my lucky d6s. We do 4d6 6 times (add up only the three highest of course) and we allow you to reroll all your stats if you don't have at least one above 13 and if your total ability mod. isn't at least a +3.
I can see the advantages of both point buy and random stat generation however theres nothin' like sitting down and rolling my lucky d6s. We do 4d6 6 times (add up only the three highest of course) and we allow you to reroll all your stats if you don't have at least one above 13 and if your total ability mod. isn't at least a +3.
Ravellion
serves Gnome Master
Bull. A stat of 14 is a +3 difference from an 8. Easily compensated with ranks in Bluff, Diplomacy etc.Saeviomagy said:
The only thing you could do as a DM is introduce CHA draining poison, and then blame them for having a low stat when to go into coma. Rather silly.
And in truth, I can't blame them. I wouldn't like to play a fighter who has the same strength as the rogue. You know, everyone likes to shine. But with the "all 14s" that Point Buy stimulates, you get less chance to do so. It is VERY predictable. Different people have shown up at the game with the exact same stats (the only differences were the feats).
The thing is that everytime soemone criticizes rolling, they say that there are power discrepencies - which is simply not the case. You just need a DM who knows that you can't have one person with 20 points more or less than the other players. force him to reroll. You don't need something as uniformalizing as Point Buy to do that.
But I have found that there are basically 3 paladins in 32 point buy. (25 point buy is IMO, a silly thing. Some classes will not be able to shine because they are more stat vs ability dpendent than others.) With organic rolling, there are likely even more than 4d6 drop lowest.
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