Star Wars WEG D6 - The Force Point - "Is it a good thing?"

The Stormtroopers represented zero threat to him
Err, sure Kenobi could have whipped out his lightsaber and cut down those stormtroopers, and dozens more. And then Vader is alerted and Kenobi, Luke, Han, Chewie and most of the population of Mos Esley are dead, the Rebel Alliance is destroyed and Palpatine is the unchallenged ruler of the galaxy.

Those stormtroopers got to live.

Qui-Gon’s use of the force against Watto was far more dubious, and he wouldn’t be getting any force points back (apart from dark ones perhaps).
 

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Err, sure Kenobi could have whipped out his lightsaber and cut down those stormtroopers, and dozens more. And then Vader is alerted and Kenobi, Luke, Han, Chewie and most of the population of Mos Esley are dead, the Rebel Alliance is destroyed and Palpatine is the unchallenged ruler of the galaxy.

Those stormtroopers got to live.

That's kind of my point exactly. Kenobi had a lot more riding on resolving the issue without conflict than his own personal safety. As such, I would have warned Kenobi's player he's treading a gray line and to be careful, but I wouldn't have treated this as an example of using a Force Power in a way that gains you a dark side point.

Qui-Gon’s use of the force against Watto was far more dubious, and he wouldn’t be getting any force points back (apart from dark ones perhaps).

We need to distinguish here between using a force power (something only force sensitives can do and only after long and difficult training) and using a force point. Qui-Gon uses a force power to deceive Watto, which brings up the morality of deception. Generally speaking, you can only deceive morally in order to save innocent lives that are in immediate danger. I agree Qui-Gon's use doesn't rise to that level. But then, I've always been rather dubious about George Lucas as a judge of morality, as I feel his movies are a bit incoherent on the point of what is moral and the Jedi ultimately end up coming off as bad to me as the Sith - Law vs. Chaos rather than clear Good vs. Evil. LN's fighting CE's where the people I end up sympathizing within the story are Owen and Beru (apart from Owen's well-intentioned but dubious lie about Anakin Skywalker having been a spice runner).
 

We need to distinguish here between using a force power (something only force sensitives can do and only after long and difficult training) and using a force point.

This is probably a critical crux that we can only agree to disagree on, but I wouldn't. At least, not in the same way you do.

To me, Force points are the WEG mechanic of the Force being "an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us and penetrates us. It binds the galaxy together". Force points represent the way non-Force sensitive characters can access the Force, in a limited yet very explosive way. It's not just a meta-currency with the GM, it's a meta-currency tied into the Force as an underlying foundation of the game world. This means that actions performed using Force points are in some way "magical"*. And it's why using Force points needs to essentially be held to (original trilogy) Jedi standards. This is also why using Force points for selfish deeds grants a Dark Force point, similar to how using Force powers for nefarious purposes grants them.

*FWIW, this is another tangent where you can break down the "Jedi are just space wizards" discussion. Yes, the Force is a fantasy element, not a sci-fi element. But it's also not "magic" in the same sense of D&D magic. It has different rules. Star Wars legacy material actually has a type of magic that's ambiguously separate from the Force. But this is already side tracking from the topic of Force points enough.

I'm sorry, but ultimately Luke destroying the Death Star with a Force Point comes down to him mechanically just doubling his dice pools so he can take a dodge action, and a piloting action, and still have enough dice left in his Star Ship gunnery pool to make that Heroic "one in a million shot". That's ultimately no more than using a Force Point in a way that makes the mission successful. There isn't anything "more" to do there.

I can't help but feel this statement is in conflict with your OP, but it might highlight your cognitive dissonance with Force Points. Of course Luke destroying the Death Star was more than just a mechanical "doubling his dice pool". It was both a spiritual and narrative climax of the movie/game. That's the part that's blatantly "more".

If you don't see that as being any different than just "a way that makes the mission successful", I don't see how anything could be a satisfying use of Force points to you. But I also don't understand why you are claiming that the jet-pack story you told in the OP is satisfying, but here you're dismissing a similar heroically important climax as blasé. It kinda feels like you're arguing against yourself.

If you want to allow Force points to be used for mundane things, and consider uses like these examples to be simple executions of game mechanics, that's fine. If you want Force points to be meaningful and cool, then you have to decide what's meaningful and cool and hold Force points to those standards. I don't know if there's a way to keep a foot on both sides of that.
 

how do you deal with force point dumping during the climax? How do you deal with balance when it becomes a metacurrency fight, where the only way to really survive against metacurrency is to use your own?
From this bit if feels you're opening the door to other systems.

My most recent experience is with Burning Wheel.

Quick context of Burning Wheel
So Burning Wheel is a dice pool system. You want to do something, the referee says it's covered by Skill A. If you have five in that skill, you roll five D6 dice. They have (by default) 50% chance of success with a 4-5-6 on the die being a success. You're trying to accrue enough successes to meet the obstacle.

Burning wheel also has other systems that allow you to get add or remove die. The referee can judge the situation and give you advantage. You can ForK another skill in if it makes narrative sense, and get a bonus die (example: I the Sword skill to fight someone, I say I ForK in the Dirty Fighting skill and say that I grab a handful of sand and throw it at my adversary to cover the swing of the sword). There's other ways.

Most importantly, there's metacurrencies. There's three types. I won't go into details, but I'll say that the maths of Burning Wheel are leaning against the player. With an average character, it's challenging to meet the obstacles. So the game strongly encourage the players to squeeze as naughty word from the system. They fork in other skills, they ask for advantage, they help each other. Every die count. They can also spend these metacurrencies, and they can spend multiple of them at the same time.

What I like about this, is that naturally the players will blow everything they can on these heroic moments. They know the importance of each moment better than the system would. There's a roll do steal some pies by the window, meh we can live if we fail. Someone's about to fall from a tower and we have to save him? Everyone stands up, starts looking at their sheet, trying to find ways to help each other, points to burn through, and trying to find advantages in the narrative.

My goal is just making sure the players get enough of these metacurrencies, that's a whole thing in Burning Wheel. But it's one aspect of the game I really enjoy.
 

From this bit if feels you're opening the door to other systems.

My most recent experience is with Burning Wheel.

I'm not very familiar with Burning Wheel, but I am familiar with Mouseguard. The metacurrencies in Mouseguard are really quite weak and are as you say there to mitigate somewhat against the odds being stacked against the player. I'm not really a fan of Luke Crane as a designer, but in this case the real issue is just how very different the metacurrencies are in the two games and not just how much I quibble with the need for three different currencies or how much I dislike systems that stack the odds against the player heavily.

In general though, one "solution" would be to make force points weaker and more common. But I'm not sure that fits with Star Wars, where heroes do big heroic things.
 

I'm not really a fan of Luke Crane as a designer
I love a lot of what he's trying to achieve, I generally dislike how he achieves it.
The metacurrencies in Mouseguard are really quite weak and are as you say there to mitigate somewhat against the odds being stacked against the player.
Yeah, that's a foundational design decision. If you want odds stacked against the players, you have to give them some mechanical ways to bring the odds back. If you stack the odds in their favor, you have less design space to work with and they can cruise more easily through things.

In general though, one "solution" would be to make force points weaker and more common. But I'm not sure that fits with Star Wars, where heroes do big heroic things.
My point really wasn't that you need multiple currencies. I was just trying to highlight that when a mechanical option like a metacurrency is made available to the players, they themselves are generally good judges as to when's the right moment to use it.

I do think that having the odds of success be really comfortable (like in 5E) for example is one of the causes of people rarely using their inspiration points and waiting for the right moment to use it.

You did make me curious to read more on Force Points though, it definitely sounds interesting!
 

This is probably a critical crux that we can only agree to disagree on, but I wouldn't. At least, not in the same way you do.

To me, Force points are the WEG mechanic of the Force being "an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us and penetrates us. It binds the galaxy together". Force points represent the way non-Force sensitive characters can access the Force, in a limited yet very explosive way. It's not just a meta-currency with the GM, it's a meta-currency tied into the Force as an underlying foundation of the game world.

I agree with all that. Not sure where you are going with this.

This means that actions performed using Force points are in some way "magical"

Like Galadriel, I don't understand what you here mean by the word "magical". Accessing the force is perceived as magic by the unlearned because they don't understand it, and they call the things that they don't understand "magic".

The reason we have to distinguish between using a force point and wielding a force power is that when wielding a force power you can guide the force to do what you want, manipulating things outside yourself. This is "action at a distance" or "causing the universe to obey your will by thought alone", two of the generic definitions of "magic" that hold up pretty well. Using a force power to me isn't doing either one of those things. There is a critical and important difference between something that only effects your own actions and something that changes or alters other people's actions.

And it's why using Force points needs to essentially be held to (original trilogy) Jedi standards.

So first of all, I don't think I have ever argued otherwise. And secondly, the WEG game makes clear that being Force Sensitive does in fact change the standards that apply to you - whether you wield force powers or not. Force Sensitives being more sensitive to the light side and the dark side, are more "knowing" and willful than non-force sensitives when taking actions and so are subject to greater and easier corruption. It's a lot easier for a Force Sensitive like a Jedi to slide into the Dark Side than someone like Han Solo. Han Solo can take shady actions without gaining dark side points. This is why being "Force Sensitive" isn't a no brainer. If you want to play a morally grey character, it's critical you are not force sensitive. That isn't to say that Han can use Force Points to do shady things, but in general he can act shadier without being corrupted because he less understands the moral consequences of his actions. But again, you are acting here like my position is different than it is. I'm not saying that you can use Force Points for shady purposes. I am saying your claims about what is shady or not are Lawful Stupid interpretations of what is shady and selfish, that seem like antagonistic "gotcha" GMing and not the rigorous application of principles you claim.

This is also why using Force points for selfish deeds grants a Dark Force point, similar to how using Force powers for nefarious purposes grants them.

Agreed. But your notion of a "selfish deed" seems rather broad, and would seem to preclude Luke using a force point to dodge Darth Vader's blaster fire while racing down the trench to destroy the exhaust port, or similarly taking a dodge action while simultaneously swinging across the Death Star canyon, necessary actions within the game world.

I can't help but feel this statement is in conflict with your OP, but it might highlight your cognitive dissonance with Force Points. Of course Luke destroying the Death Star was more than just a mechanical "doubling his dice pool". It was both a spiritual and narrative climax of the movie/game. That's the part that's blatantly "more".

If you don't see that as being any different than just "a way that makes the mission successful", I don't see how anything could be a satisfying use of Force points to you. But I also don't understand why you are claiming that the jet-pack story you told in the OP is satisfying, but here you're dismissing a similar heroically important climax as blasé. It kinda feels like you're arguing against yourself.

I think its because you don't understand what I'm saying at all.

What I am saying is that stripped of its narrative context and build up, Luke's destruction of the Death Star by shooting a photon torpedo into the 2m port is boring. In fact, one of the things that "saved Star Wars in the edit" (which is a vast oversimplification) was increasing the tension of this final sequence by cutting back and forth between Luke and the count down at the Rebel base as they are waiting to be destroyed. The action itself is not exciting, but rather it is exciting because it is the climax of a long and dramatic build up where almost the entire Rebel force is destroyed and now Luke is the last one left and he only has one shot at this and the dramatic music is playing and we are getting shots where we move away from the action to show the great danger he is in (both from the perspective of the base and from Darth Vader's perspective) and then Luke is essentially told "Hey, use a force point" (which he didn't know he could do) and then he wins at the last moment through the intervention of Han Solo at the same time. And all of that makes for great dramatic timing.

But in play, what tends to actually happen is the PC protagonist efficiently attacks the exhaust port first before anyone else has died on the suicide mission and efficiently uses that force point first time to land the shot first time before Darth Vader is even in the air, and while that is conceptually the same thing the dramatic experience of it is very different. What am I supposed to do about that? Punish the player for being efficiently heroic and not getting everyone killed?

And this is why "good" force point uses like the saving the falling comrade or the covering the wounded witness with your own body to save them from the explosion while simultaneously using a medkit on him feel so different. Those are dramatic actions in and of themselves, regardless of the context in which they occur.

But those are rarer than the less dramatic use of short cutting to the conclusion of the scene.

If you want to allow Force points to be used for mundane things...

You just don't understand what I'm saying and you need to back away and look at what I'm saying again.
 

they are being used as win buttons to overcome challenges with minimal drama, because that's the motivation of players in any TTRPG really
So, I think this might be a core reason Force Points are giving you issues -- and why others can run for years without seeing such issues. If the main reason your players play a TTRPG is to overcome challenges without drama, it's going to be really hard to use rules designed for drama. If they are actively happy to have a banal finale because they could use a win button, it seems like there is a mismatch between your expectations of what is fun and theirs.

For me, this happened using TRAIL OFF CTHULHU. In the finale, a player spent enough to guarantee they could jump out of the collapsing <location>, spent enough to make their sanity check, and so "beat" the finale without needing to roll the dice. So now I run Call of Cthulhu for classic horror, and reserve Gumshoe for other genres (That sort of thing works well for Night's Black Agents, for example).

I don't think quibbling over what is heroic or not is going to be of much help running the game.
Completely agree. I never feel good in conversations about whether an action is "heroic" or "in-genre" or "good" -- there is such a latitude of reasonable belief that it's unpleasant to make a moral ruling that another honestly disagrees with. I'm happy if a player and I disagree over the penalty to shoot during a foggy day in gale-force winds. But it's different when you say "I don't think that action is heroic" when the other person really does.

For those with experience with the mechanic or any metacurrency that can be used to dramatic effect - and the Force Point is probably the most powerful metacurrency in any game I know of - how do you deal with force point dumping during the climax? How do you deal with balance when it becomes a metacurrency fight, where the only way to really survive against metacurrency is to use your own?
In general I am not a big fan of any spend-to-win situations. It's OK to spend to guarantee a single skill check or roll, because any pivotal scene should be designed around multiple checks.

In your situation, assuming that the players really would like dramatic finales, but cannot resist the temptation to use win buttons, I might add a new aspect to opponents; that they are "legendary" or whatever term you like, and, in scenes that they are in, a force point is diminished in impact and can only be used to modify roll probabilities, not as an instant win.
 

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