Faithless world, is it possible at low-levels

[Derren]

I have never played/read anything about Dragonlance, if that is the same then yes

Dragonlance started as "No divinity" (Cults existed but no divine magic) but the gods were quickly rediscovered.
You can look at the Midnight setting where all gods except one lost the connection to the world and the last remaining one is more of a "enslave the world" type.

As for how a world without religion would look like, imo not necessarily different from ours. While the romans and greek had religion, it wasn't as important as Christanity in the middle ages. The Mongols couldn't care less about religion and in Asia for a time people followed more a philosophy than a religion.

 

[Omegaxicor]

I like that then, the problem with our world being the template is Arcane magic...

 

[Greenfield]

I don't know if my current campaign is a good reference. The gods themselves have been largely absent and/or unavailable for direct query or interaction, but clerics still have spells and the churches still have power.

One point about a D&D style holy man: I tend to see them as dyed in the wool religious fanatics. That is, they aren't running on blind faith, or even inspired faith. They know for a fact that their deity exists. They pray to him/her and their prayers are answered every day when the god or goddess fills them with divine power, renewing their daily spells.

So while they will acknowledge the existence of other deities, particularly within the same pantheon, they will brook absolutely no deviation in the worship of their deity. The rules are clear, the deity has spoken at least once (probably in person) to make their wishes known. The higher level clerics can actually talk to the god via Commune, Divination, or even Contact Higher Plane if anything ever needs to be clarified. Angels, in the form of Archons, Planetars and even Solars, can be called in via the various Summon spells, to give direct testimony about what's going on. There really isn't any room for doubt or debate, which I see as the hallmark of a religious fanatic.

Now in our world, divination spells that call for answers from the higher powers directly are failing. Anything bigger than an Augry just flat fail. There is no deity available to pick up the phone and give out advice. But Healing spells work, protection spells work, other divinations work. The gods still exist, that is certain.

The world you're talking about is more of an agnostic world, where the deities are cut off or have abandoned it for lack of believers.

Just for fun, take a look at the Terry Pratchet book, Small Gods. It deals with a god who decides to manifest in the mortal world, only to discover that although he has a great and powerful church with lots of followers, they believe in and follow the church, not the god. In fact, he discovers, he has only one person in the entire theocratic empire that actually believes in him.

The book is light and entertainings, as most of Pratchet's works are, and includes a few scenes with the philosophical skeptics who argue that there really aren't any gods. Note that they tend to do this while inside building with well grounded metal roofs, to keep the lightning of those non-existent gods from killing them for their heresy.

Over all, though, it might give you another view of how a world like yours came to be.

 

[Omegaxicor]

OK, 1) your post keeps disappearing for me :/

2) the more I look at it it seems a Magi-tech society would be best in that situation maybe material heavy Arcane magic is not understood WHY it works but it does, low tech society rubs two sticks together to light a fire, they don't know about friction just that fire is created...can society function like that??

I don't know how but I will try and look into getting that book it sounds like a good read and a good source of inspiration

 

[Unwise]

I once DMed a setting where people did believe in the gods, but very much like wrath of the titans, it was an us-and-them scenario where people saw them as the enemy. There were mad gods who ravaged the world, even the 'good' gods had little care for humanity and spent them like worthless pawns in their battles with the other gods. Humanity eventually woke up to the situation and realised that they got nothing out of this arrangement.

In a move remeniscent of many MMOs, the most powerful heroes of the mortals actually stormed some of the bastions of the gods en masse and killed some of them. The gods withdrew entirely, spurning the mortals, thinking that they would come crawling back for forgiveness. What they in fact found was that mortals could survive perfectly well without them, but they could not survive without the mortals to lord over. When they returned, they came back much weaker and with very nasty attitudes indeed.

This was a great setting, as clerical magic existed, but was frowned upon much the same way that arcane magic is in most settings. Clerics were generally seen as traitors to mortality. It also gave lots of opportunities for creations of mad gods, and lots of low-powered gods and godlings, once great, now brought down to the level where PCs can kill them, even in heroic tier. I really enjoyed it and highly recommend something similar.

 

[RUMBLETiGER]

I remember reading somewhere there were signs of the apocalypse, like a meteor shower or animals going insane, it was in one of the books an old 'lost' friend had because I have looked through all of the books I have, briefly, but can't find it. Does anyone know what books they were from?

Elder Evils, starting on p.7 Signs of Apocalypse.

To your response #6, if the gods have always been banished from the world, what exactly has changed? How did the gods used to interact with the world and what now is different? Also, my question is as before, what do the gods intend to do about whatever has changed, are they taking actions to re-establish the attention of mortals?

 

[Omegaxicor]

I might not have been clear with that, the gods are not Mortals with lots of power (humanoid forms that can be killed or talked to or fought side-by-side with) they are beings of pure energy in their own dimension but they absorb energy from those who pray to them or worship them (warriors going into battle pray "Lord Heironeous please let me see another day" they don't get spells but they are protected, probably by luck, and Heironeous gets energy) and they give that energy to their Clerics (or in Heironeous' case Paladins, since Heironeous cannot have Clerics in my world) who convert others to worshipping their god and grants them more energy, Clerics of lesser known or worshipped Gods cannot cast higher levels spells because they lack sufficient energy.

The gods are no longer worshipped by mortals so therefore they have no energy to give to their Clerics, the Gods themselves have no grand plan that mortals are aware of and since they lack a lot of their usual power there is little that they can do but they have warned their followers that the lack of faith is going to result in doom for everyone...

What has changed is that noone says "Please protect me" before going into battle, noone prays to Pelor when applying medicinal herbs hoping they will work, noone prays to Nerull when someone dies to ask that they are guided to their resting place.

EDIT: that explains why I couldn't find it, I don't have that book but I will look for the information, Thanks

 

[RUMBLETiGER]

Gotcha, deities are different than classic greyhawk.

So do these gods require the prayers, faith and attention of mortals to sustain their own power? I'm getting the impression from you that the answer is yes.

I realize that the Pc's are likely to never discover what the gods are thinking and doing, but I'd encourage you as the DM to have some idea of what's going on behind the scenes from their perspective, in case you need to incorporate it later.

So what has happened historically that has changed the perspective of faith? You mentioned technology, what forms are you using? Has Arcane magic simply become more commonplace? Because if the majority of people have some access to magic, that would lead to interesting cultures. If the average commoner could use Prestidigitation, that alone would alter an entire lifestyle and grant more free time. Common usage of Unseen Servant would virtually eliminate the menial working class. etc.

 

[Omegaxicor]

Yes that's the basic idea, as for what they are doing I am limited by, What CAN they do? their magic and powers are based on mortal energy, without that they are not powerless but limited...

Yes Arcane magic is commonplace but it isn't easy, ALL Arcane Magic requires material components or focuses so the average commoner doesn't have access to every spell, but potions of Cure Light wounds are made from medicinal herbs which are common and Create Water is a matter of having a shard of Purified Ice. Essentially magic has become a science which is common place, crafting things using Fabricate or Shape Stone requires focus and training just like with stone-masonry. A lord (or someone like an entrepreneur) can pay someone who specialises in it to create a few dozen Unseen Servant's to work in a Mine or a Farm. Wizards are more common but Sorcerers are almost unheard of because magic isn't natural it is learned science (but some people can cast without materials)

 

[NotZenon]

I dm'd a game were the gods and been mostly selfish/wrathfull evil dark gods like the gods of conan-esque type senario's ... so the powerful beings of the world had risen up and destroyed them... because of cataclysmic upheaval the world was plunged into a dark ages of sorts for awhile, but eventually (during the time of the players) had become quite "civilized" again.

In many cultures, bards had taken the place of clerics... wanderer's with access to some healing magic, (and powerful enchantments) who tell the stories of the people. Similar to a religion, but more informal and based on history. Because of their charismatic and charming abilities (as well as access to magic) it would be very easy for them to set themselves up into positions of influence, or power... whether that's the wholesome influence of the old wise man, or sage old priest, or the unwholesome influence of a cult of personality, etc... is up to you.

In other cultures some of the religious institutions had survived, and in some ways echoed religions of our own world. There is a LG church who believe in one divine and benevolent deity who refuses to interfere in the lives of his creation because of 'free choice' ... the same church... not being held in place by an ever watch full god, has a LE branch who believes all non believers should be forcefully converted or killed. Similarly there could be a CG branch within the organization clamoring for more freedom and change.

Another religion focus's on the worship and mythos of magic. Magic is still very much a real power in this world - and magic is seen by a intrisic and benevolant force that flows through all beings by some, and others see it as an uncaring but powerful being of creation who rewards the dedicated, and those who can enforce there own will upon reality - a being who makes judgements not based upon morals but only upon strength of will.

A religion of a different culture worships the Dragons who helped bring about the destruction of the old gods, and because of this worship the dragons themselves have gained some measure of godlike power (i'd say demi-gods or high level wizards at the most).

Another religion, is a church that is wholly devoted to atheism, and more specifically the eradication of ignorance. This religion can have both benevolent and destructive factions, as some see the goal of the organization to spread enlightenment, others the goal is to destroy those who spread 'harmful' ideas.

In my world druid magic went out with the nature gods, but of course their is no reason for it to be so in your world. If so then the druids have a powerful argument for their religions - "look our magic still works!" - could quite easily be a culture based on Celtic/druidism etc...

anyways hope my ramblings have been of help. - i personally find worlds without gods that directly interfere, as well as stark alignments (or alignment detecting spells), and racial generalizations (all orcs are evil) to be far more interesting. but of course sometimes that level of complexity can be hard to run and annoying to hold in the balance. Sometimes you just wanna kill the orcs, take there treasure, and not have to worry about whether a Good aligned person should really be killing anyone in anything but self defense.