Famine in the world

[Greenfield]

RumbleTiger, that's an interesting point.

A greedy caster might well prepare such a quick transit point. But, being greedy, and knowing that the city fathers would have it (and him) destroyed at first opportunity, he might well do it in secret.

Isn't this the stuff of adventures after all? PC's exploring the mad wizard's lair discover a mysterious stone ring that radiates magic?

Loonook: My campaign *includes* (not "depends on" ) a group trying to minimize the availability of a particular spell. One Dispel Magic can undo the ongoing effect of Plant Growth, after all, and that's all it takes.

But that does bring up something of what I was looking for: Plot hooks or developments.

Presume that, in order to isolate the Druidic community and minimize their ability to address the famine issue, the bad guys promoted a general distrust of them? Blaming the nature priests for the sky turning black and nature turning against them isn't that big a leap, after all.

Now, Civilization v the Sims? Really? I thought we were talking D&D.
(And I seriously doubt that you'll find any reference to arms smuggling in the world building section of the DMG.)

Magic exists in the game world, and has for a long time. It's part of the world, and in areas where the factors are right, I'd expect to see it employed in a lot of different aspects of life.

Previously, you estimated the number of high level spell casters based on city populations of 100,000 or so.

The city of Rome had over half a million slaves at one point, and a full population that's been estimated as high as 1.3 million. Even experts have to estimate, because census figures are unreliable. Some census counts counted only adult men, others only citizens, while yet others included non-citizen freemen, and slaves were most often counted as property. Still, other records show that the city of Rome imported more than a million slaves a year for quite a while, so that gives us a hint as to its true size.

During the same period my game is set in (500 a.d.) Athens had a population of 140,000. Again, this is an estimate, and didn't count slaves which would swell that number. Estimates place the slave population between 150,000 and 400,000. (You can Google these figures, if you care).

Based on these figures, the highest level casters normally available would include archmages (those capable of casting 9th level spells), so Teleport Circle would be in play. Still, that spell takes 10,000 gp in materials to cast, so it probably wouldn't be in regular use for commerce unless it was made Permanent, or crafted into a portal point as a Wondrous Item with X activations per day (or week depending on your budget.)

Oddly, since the Teleport Circle is a one way transit (going, not coming), having a Permanent one in your city wouldn't pose any threat to the realm, and opposing one wouldn't prevent some enemy from using one prepared on their end to move troops into your capital. So in many ways it would make sense for a major city to invest in such a thing for trade purposes, with a reciprocal arrangement with a trading partner. You get some control of where things pop in that way.

Or at least the illusion of it...

 

[RUMBLETiGER]

I've mentioned my Factotum PC a few times in various threads. One of my ideas for his future high levels (18+) includes the well meaning but naive plan to offer a series of permanent portals to large kingdoms to improve commerce and way of life.

He's got a very high INT but an ordinary WIS score. One of his ongoing RP flaws in the belief that if the common person was educated, in Arcane magic and other areas, that civilization would surely improve. Surely he operates this way, wouldn't everyone?

I'm designing a campaign that is supposed to take place about 200 years after our current one, in the same world, following the repercussions for better or worse, of our current adventuring party. A chain of portals outside major kingdoms lead to continent-wide military conquests about 75 years after their construction. The party members are seen as more a villainous nuisance in the annals of history then the heroes they're becoming.

The discovery of my Factotum's fortress stronghold will be a focal point of the future adventurers saga. This will be the Mad Wizard's lair.

 

[Loonook]

Previously, you estimated the number of high level spell casters based on city populations of 100,000 or so.

The city of Rome had over half a million slaves at one point, and a full population that's been estimated as high as 1.3 million. Even experts have to estimate, because census figures are unreliable. Some census counts counted only adult men, others only citizens, while yet others included non-citizen freemen, and slaves were most often counted as property. Still, other records show that the city of Rome imported more than a million slaves a year for quite a while, so that gives us a hint as to its true size.

During the same period my game is set in (500 a.d.) Athens had a population of 140,000. Again, this is an estimate, and didn't count slaves which would swell that number. Estimates place the slave population between 150,000 and 400,000. (You can Google these figures, if you care).

Based on these figures, the highest level casters normally available would include archmages (those capable of casting 9th level spells), so Teleport Circle would be in play. Still, that spell takes 10,000 gp in materials to cast, so it probably wouldn't be in regular use for commerce unless it was made Permanent, or crafted into a portal point as a Wondrous Item with X activations per day (or week depending on your budget.)

Nope. The Community modifier for any metropolis per the DMG is +12 roll 4x. The max level is d4+Modifier. There is no increase in scale... Cities built RAW do not have a spellcaster above d4+12 in the city. So again, playing strictly by the rules, which is a good benchmark if we are, you know, creating an entire civilization's worth of individuals.

The problem with TC is that it serves no purpose for your specific stated reasons WITHOUT a reciprocal TC.

The concepts delineated throughout my posts are actually straight from sources, which I have even outlined. The discussion of item rates increasing by factors actually is listed in the DMG for reasons just as we have been working on the premise of an economy of need.

The whole thing is that the numbers presented can be completely rule 0'd, and every city has ten Archmages ready... but you're asking advice. My advice is that, per RAW, your famine isn't necessarily a famine. Use a disease, a more severe famine, war... But by the numbers you have a group of individuals who, by sacrificing a small portion of their assets, can alleviate the situation for one year of crops.

My whole point here is to play the devil's advocate versus your DMing skills and knowledge. To wipe out the effectiveness of a whole class in dealing with a situation that they are built to do... It would be like having a demonic army Planeshift an entire planet so they're native preventing Banishment and other non-native outsider penalties It is a meta-solution which can be drawn down so much more effectively by any number of other means.

A volcanic event of the magnitude you're describing doesn't just kill crops.. It's an extinction level event. The sheer amount of sulfurous vapor produced is going to affect global pH levels, and drop temperatures by levels unforseen outside of approximations for nuclear winter. Tambora, an event that would be considered paltry for your global supervolcanic event, led to The Year Without A Summer.

-3.7C temperature differential. 12" of snow in June in Quebec. A dry red fog that made solar events visible to the naked eye. Temperature shifts from 32C to 4C in the matter of a couple of hours. 200,000 dead in Europe, and crops were reduced to a quarter of yield. Blood red snow falling in Italy, and rivers iced over all over the US.

Your event? Sulfurous rains, temperatures plunging to 0 C crops brought down to a tenth of yield, the sky weeps ash, black and tan blizzards in High Summer. It is an extinction event in less than three months.

Unless you're deciding to tone down the event's effects. To be quite honest it seems like you want a very specific response of agreement, and to beat the solution rather than allowing things to play out. Druids are discredited during a period where they are purposefully turning to aid as one of only a few groups who CAN do anything? That seems over-the-top.

As I've stated repeatedly a population supported by magic is just unfeasible as it requires the magic-users to be passive dispensers of spellcraft. If, per your discussions previously, the magic-user is an entrepreneur... What does a Druid spend their scratch on?

Again, I think you need to look over your event. It seems overly weak for the effect described. You're wiping out an entire world but no one is able to stop it with these incongruous epic spellcasters running about?

Slainte,

-Loonook.

 

[Greenfield]

Loonook, the volcanic events I've described really happened. We went through what many call a mini ice-age right around the time in question (500 a.d.)

Krkakatoa really did erupt in 536 a.d., and the ash cloud really did reduce sunlight hitting the earth, worldwide. There really was a meteor strike in Russia that affected plant growth (according to tree-ring studies) over most of the world. I didn't make that up.

And none of that matters. It's not the point.

What is the point? This thread isn't about number crunching the scene, or determining that it can or can't happen, or arguing the economic viability of magic use in a fantasy world, or the profit margin of the China trade.

I was asking for suggested plot developments, story hooks, etc. Nothing more. This is why I kept saying "you win", so we could get back to that topic. Whether you're right, wrong, or irrelevant is itself irrelevant. Your emotional need to "win" something that can't be "won" is irrelevant.

I was just looking for some outside input on story arcs. That's all.

Somehow, though, I expect that you'll continue arguing. You're still trying to "win".

 

[James the Newbie]

I think I get the point of this

Hummn
Evil vilians handing out 'tainted' food, if poisonous, or enchanted with an evil spell

The rich stock piling more food than necessary leading for tyranny over a small town

In the centre of a volcano some kind of dark pyromage that leads to retrebutive slaying from PC's

Agrivated and starving animals making attacks, possibly leading to druids having raids on villagers who they see as 'stealing' from the forest

Scammers selling solutions to the fog to villages

Air elementals change slightly and decend, or there are fog elementals.

Dragons could be more active? The sky is 'broken' I see that ending in lots of ways for them

If there is no bright sunlight, then orcs and such should be more active going after territory, I am a huge tome of battle fan, but a military escapade is a campaign unto itself, though the food shortages add an interesting dimension

if there are riots in one of the larger cities, that is an interesting place to go scavenge in and find any manner of treasure and monsters, something different to a dungeon and maybe a bit more fun for the rogues and a bit more valour for the knights.

Plant creatures could start offering aid (Link back to war idea if you do want it) to adventurers in prophecies or with new gear or even sharing some kind of food's that may help vilages in return for favours
[Sorry for bringing magic to economy in a sense here, but I meant as a kind of reward for helping plant creatures could add a new dimension, if you don't like it, don't dwell on it too much]

Protecting caravanner's with food who travel city to city trying to make profit.

Would angels offer help in exchange for challenging planar quests, possibly helping massive amounts of people, and adding a large chance for Gods to do something if the players interact with them

Gems, relics and metals may be less important than just eating, players who get a large reward of food may find themselves trading it all at once to someone with rare or old relics that are of great use. This could lead to players questing after large stores of food from places, an odd objective by any account that works once or twice.

 

[Greenfield]

Good plot ideas. Many of them have been used, many haven't.

We've been playing the campaign for just under two years now, and have seen a few.

One oddity of the round-robin style is that we've posed a challenge, a master plot to unwind, and none of us really started out knowing what it was, nor how to foil it.

One feature of the campaign is that the fun is all in getting there, and the exact nature of the final solution isn't all that important. We'll literally make it up as we go along.

Now many of the ideas you've mentioned might happen almost as background noise, if you know what I mean. That is, they aren't major plot hooks but instead become more or less game color, window dressing.

I don't know if you saw the post I made that covered the "Paradox of creation". That was from a later adventure, but it's all part of the same campaign. It was a bit of a surprise to most everyone to have one of us actually identify the "bad guys", or what their actual plot was.

I've posted the start of the campaign, in story form, over on the Story Hour forum. I might post some more of the tales, though sadly I didn't keep my writing up as the game progressed.