D&D 5E Fantasy Appalachia

I do agree Appalachia the region is just the central to southern part (WV south), and that the region name should be pronounced as the locals pronounce it - which is actually how I say that region name.

But I actually lived in the Appalachian Mountains. For NY, MA, and VT, I’m an ear witness that local people of the “northern highlands“ by this map pronounce it the other way. Both regional pronunciations are correct, in their own part of the Appalachians.

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Aldarc

Legend
Yeah. It's important to note that the ARC was not trying to define the actual boundaries of the Appalachians, either in terms of its physical mountain ranges or the cultural region. The ARC was motivated by political factors as part of its economic development project. The boundaries of the ARC's Appalachian map were extended to areas outside of the Appalachian cultural regions, especially once lawmakers in neighboring areas saw the ARC as a way to bring additional funds to their districts and towns.

If one wants a "fantasy Appalachia" game, then the Appalachian cultural region IMHO the area that should be the central focus.
 

Well, the Appalachian Mountains and "Appalachia" are not the same thing.
True.

And I thought I made that distinction in defending how my home region (in the Appalachian Mountains, but in the northeast, not in Appalachia) pronounces the word for its own mountains.

Anyhow, not important to the original topic of Appalachia.

But a tangent criticized the northern pronunciation of Appalachian Trail as being wrong, not used by people in the Appalachians, and new, and political. It’s none of those things.

It is really how we say it in the northeast part of the Appalachian Mountains. We, as in, including me. I can speak from personal experience to NY, MA, and VT parts of the mountain. My hometown in NY is on the map as being “northern highlands”. I hiked part of the Appalachian Trail in MA near VT and NY state lines, day hikes from the town I was living in that it runs through. The vilified Yankee pronunciation is how it’s said there - literally the local way to say a local place. The Appalachians aren’t just local in Appalachia.

I get people disliking being told their local pronunciation for a local placename is wrong (a logical impossibility, in my view) but that’s why I stuck up for my own local pronunciation, while agreeing the others are correct in their own places.

If referring to the central part of the Appalachians as “where Dolly Parton lives“ sounded like I was criticizing Appalachia, I apologize. Imho, she’s a living legend, a great American - I totally get why Bezos gave her a ton of money, as she does so much good and yes I’ve watched her specials. I switched to that from originally saying “TN/NC/VA”, which is the part of Appalachia I was thinking.

The guy I hiked part of the trail with was an environmental studies major (and a D&D player) from SW VA, and we talked about the local vegetation on the trail in MA, same as in my hometown in NY and his in VA, and he explained it’s mostly by altitude not just latitude in the Appalachians. So he (and Dolly!) are who think of when I think Appalachia, the other pronunciation, and the connection of the Appalachians the whole way up and down. It’s not “imperialism” - it’s a shared mountain range.
 

True.

And I thought I made that distinction in defending how my home region (in the Appalachian Mountains, but in the northeast, not in Appalachia) pronounces the word for its own mountains.

Anyhow, not important to the original topic of Appalachia.

But a tangent criticized the northern pronunciation of Appalachian Trail as being wrong, not used by people in the Appalachians, and new, and political. It’s none of those things.

It is really how we say it in the northeast part of the Appalachian Mountains. We, as in, including me. I can speak from personal experience to NY, MA, and VT parts of the mountain. My hometown in NY is on the map as being “northern highlands”. I hiked part of the Appalachian Trail in MA near VT and NY state lines, day hikes from the town I was living in that it runs through. The vilified Yankee pronunciation is how it’s said there - literally the local way to say a local place. The Appalachians aren’t just local in Appalachia.

I get people disliking being told their local pronunciation for a local placename is wrong (a logical impossibility, in my view) but that’s why I stuck up for my own local pronunciation, while agreeing the others are correct in their own places.

I think there is also the issue of accents. Accents are real and they aren't something people consciously control. I remember moving out west when I was a kid and being told my pronunciation of words was incorrect. I eventually lost my Boston accent (at least to me it sounds like I lost it) because it was such an issue out there. When people come to Boston they often pronounce our place names completely wrong by local standards, and we will bust chops to be playful. I wouldn't tell someone their regional pronunciation is 'wrong' it is just different from how we say things (and to be honest our pronunciations of local places are very unusual----to the extent that there are whole playlists of youtube videos of people reacting to the local pronunciation of Massachusetts place names). I think there is a big difference between going to some place and literally telling people the local pronunciation is wrong, versus using the pronunciation you are accustomed to using your entire life.

If referring to the central part of the Appalachians as “where Dolly Parton lives“ sounded like I was criticizing Appalachia, I apologize. Imho, she’s a living legend, a great American - I totally get why Bezos gave her a ton of money, as she does so much good and yes I’ve watched her specials. I switched to that from originally saying “TN/NC/VA”, which is the part of Appalachia I was thinking.

For what it is worth, I assumed it was complimentary. She is one of the greatest song writers of all time, not to mention an amazing singer. Even outside the genres she operates in, she tends to get a lot of respect from fans because of her song writing talent.
 


Aldarc

Legend
It's a big region that's seen a lot of historical change. Pronunciations differ . . . between insiders and outsiders, but also between subregions . . . and pronunciations change over time. What you post about represents truth, but not everyone's truth. Not even everyone who lives in or has roots in Appalachia.
The region has seen a lot of historical change, but the pronunciation of Appalachian with the "latch" or "ă" sound has actually been fairly consistent in the core cultural areas. Its origins come from 16th century Spanish phonetic transliteration for the Apalachee Muskogee tribe, which lived in what is now northern Florida. The Apalachee language does not have the "ā" sound found in the northern "App-uh-LAY-shun" pronunciation of the mountain ranges. Moreover, this "ă" sound is also present when talking about the "Apalachee" and "Apalachiacola" American Indians. FWIW, one would not call them the "App-uh-LAY-shee" tribe. The "sh" sound also absent in the Spanish pronunciation of the mountains. They are the Ap-uh-lătch-ee tribe, and Spanish speakers say (and I approximate here) "ă-pa-lă-tches." Even when looking at older maps, for example, one can sometimes find a more phonetic spelling variations, such as "Appalatchan." French Huegenot explorers in 1564 identified the mountains as the "Montes Apalatchi." Likewise, one Spanish prisoner of Sir Frances Drake in 1586 also wrote of them as the "Apalatchi" Mountains. How the cultural core of the Appalachian Mountains pronounces the word is remarkably consistent with this historical prounciation and etymological origins.

In contrast, the App-uh-LAY-shun pronunciation came much later, by comparison, but not from the cultural core regions of the Appalachian Mountains that identifies with "Appalachian" as both a physical and cultural region. How the "locals" in the northern mountain reaches having been saying the word is fairly new, as they didn't refer to the mountains they inhabited as the "Appalachians" in the first place. Historically in America, the northern section of the Appalachian mountains were primarily known as the Alleghanies for a long time, while the southern ranges were always known as the Appalachians. It was only until later that Appalachian became the name for the entire mountain range, with sometimes Alleghanies being considered the "proper" name for the mountains at some points, particularly by non-Southerners. IME, a fair number of Northerners I have spoken to still think of them as the Alleghanies and would never think of themselves as "Appalachian," particularly since the term conjures negative stereotypes of rural white poverty, uneducated hillbillies, etc. For example, one friend from New York I spoke to said that the mountains in Last of the Mohicans didn't look like "[his] part of the Alleghanies." When I asked if he considered himself "Appalachians" he likewise retorted, "Why would I? I'm from the Alleghanies in New York."

"App-uh-LAY-shun" is an invention. It is a pronunciation that trail organizers from the northeast in the early 1900s thought sounded more aesthetically pleasing than the local pronunciation of the core and southern regions, and many people outside the Southern Appalachias followed suit because of the assumption that we don't speak proper English and therefore must be wrong. For the past one-hundred years the southern Appalachian mountains and its people have been identified as a "social problem" to be "fixed." We have been treated as an impoverished uncivilized people in need of saving by people who know better while also repeatedly derided as a cultural backwater and the butt of many jokes and negative stereotypes. And with Outsiders' desire to "save" us also invariably came "App-uh-LAY-shun" pronunciation with them. Our English was wrong. Our dialect was wrong. Our pronunciation of Appalachian was wrong. In short, our culture was wrong.

If the political power of names and the desire to "save" barbaric, uncivilized lands sounds familiar, it's because it's not that far removed from Edward Said's argument about Orientalism, albeit here happening in the backyard of the Americas. The pronunciation of "App-uh-Latch-uh" is also an act of political resistance against our cultural erasure. This reality has been picked up by a fair number of professors and scholars of Appalachian Studies. Our pronunciation has increasingly become the preferred pronunciation in these circles for that reason.

People are welcome to tell me that there are many acceptable pronunciations of "Appalachia," but the pronunciation you use communicates a great deal to many of us in or from the Appalachian cultural core. It is a cultural and political signifier regardless of whether you never heard it pronounced any other way than what you grew up with.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
Not to people that live there.

Again, "there" is across a dozen states, with a range of linguistic takes on the word. Folks in PA don't talk like people in Mississippi. As a simple practical matter, various pronunciations exist.

Calling one pronunciation or another "wrong", can be very problematic. There's a lot of racism and classism to be found in such declarations.

For casual conversation, if you can still understand what folks are saying, maybe that should be considered good enough.
 

If the political power of names and the desire to "save" barbaric, uncivilized lands sounds familiar, it's because it's not that far removed from Edward Said's argument about Orientalism, albeit here happening in the backyard of the Americas. The pronunciation of "App-uh-Latch-uh" is also an act of political resistance against our cultural erasure. This reality has been picked up by a fair number of professors and scholars of Appalachian Studies. Our pronunciation has increasingly become the preferred pronunciation in these circles for that reason.

I think getting into Said is probably overly political for this forum but just to focus on the regional pronunciation aspect of this point: do you use the local regional names for places in the Middle East? People in the Middle East called Egypt, Misr, and people in Egypt itself, I believe, call it Masr. I am a little rusty on this so don't write a paper using these terms.

The issue here for me is no one is telling you your local pronunciations are wrong, but we live in other parts of the country where Appalachia is pronounced differently, just like a lot of places are pronounced differently if you live in say the south versus the north, or the east coast versus the west coast (even New Yorkers and people from Boston pronounce things very differently: and to be clear our view of New Yorkers is probably pretty similar to your view of northerners). If people are being rude, then definitely I get it. I've had people from out of state come here and be insulting, and a lot of times there is a class divide and cultural divide there. But if someone comes here and calls Haverhill "Hayver Hill", because that's what it looks like it sounds like and people outside the state pronounce it that way, I might tell them the local way but I wouldn't take umbrage at it.
 


Aldarc

Legend
I think getting into Said is probably overly political for this forum but just to focus on the regional pronunciation aspect of this point: do you use the local regional names for places in the Middle East? People in the Middle East called Egypt, Misr, and people in Egypt itself, I believe, call it Masr. I am a little rusty on this so don't write a paper using these terms.
I hope you can appreciate that there are reasons why we talk now of Mumbai and not "Bombay" or Sri Lanka and not "Ceylon." Likewise recent events saw many people learning to how to say and spell "Kyiv" rather than "Kiev" or "Ukraine" rather than "The Ukraine." Plus there is Derry or Londonderry. How you choose to call these places is both a cultural and political matter that can communicate how you view them.

The issue here for me is no one is telling you your local pronunciations are wrong, but we live in other parts of the country where Appalachia is pronounced differently, just like a lot of places are pronounced differently if you live in say the south versus the north, or the east coast versus the west coast (even New Yorkers and people from Boston pronounce things very differently: and to be clear our view of New Yorkers is probably pretty similar to your view of northerners). If people are being rude, then definitely I get it. I've had people from out of state come here and be insulting, and a lot of times there is a class divide and cultural divide there. But if someone comes here and calls Haverhill "Hayver Hill", because that's what it looks like it sounds like and people outside the state pronounce it that way, I might tell them the local way but I wouldn't take umbrage at it.
The issue here for me is that this is false, and you would know that if you lived in the Appalachia heartlands. There may not be people telling me my local pronunciation is wrong on this thread, but that is not true in the real world and the actual lived experiences of the Appalachian people. I have been told repeatedly to my face that our pronunciation is wrong, redneck, hickish, uneducated nonsense, and more. My experience is not unique here. My sister faces the same in her experiences in New York and Conneticut. There is more than a century of non-Appalachians telling us that our dialect and pronunciations are wrong, with "Appalachian" being one word in our long list of mispronunced words. We have transplants who come down south who are quick to "correct" how locals speak. We are called hillbillies, rednecks, hicks, and bumpkins for our dialect and culture. There is "poverty porn" exploitation and condescension directed towards us. There are Appalachians who feel forced to shed their dialects because of the judgment against the dialect. There are people who stop saying Appalachian here because they believe it makes them sound "more educated" and believe that the Southern Appalachian pronunciation must be wrong because of the enormous biases against it.
 
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