Fantasy Arms Race, Round Two

[s/LaSH]

I think the idea was to have four nations, perhaps in a fragile balance so the winner isn't automatically decided by force of numbers.

I think spell level 5 sounds reasonable, don't you? Although consider that not every spell has been thought of yet. Note that this limits casters to around level 10, so we can't expect higher-level characters than that.

That said, here are my contributions to this scenario:

The Stymphalians are a hill-based people, similar to the ancient Greek city-states they're based on. They live to the North of Cresia, right? We need a quick history for them, and technological capabilities.

Stymphalia is not a political body. The city-states all have their own internal allegiances. They don't think of themselves as Stymphalians, they owe allegiance to one of a half-dozen city-states. What caused these states to spring up? They're relatively new, or Cresia would know about them. Why would a people band together in fortified cities? For protection. From what? Probably a force of invaders.

So, Stymphalia was formed when a rural people who had discovered how to put together kiln-baked bricks came under attack from migrant people from another place (perhaps a tribe from the Horse People?). The armies of the invader were intent on wiping out the Stymphalians and taking their land (because it was warmer than their distant home), but they were able to erect fortresses and see off or assimilate the invaders over a period of generations. These fortresses fought amongst each other, having discovered the joys of military action and having no central authority. Eventually, six states were all that was left, and the population was depleted after constant war.

(Oh, and I think Stymphalia is getting difficult to type. Should we fantasise it a little and call them the Stempa instead?)

Anyway, the Stempa had no problems with fire and were able to develop bronze at the same time as the Jongans. They've had it for a while, and have developed great weapons and personal armour - similar to plate mail, much like certain types of Greek armour. Their natural proclivity to defensive warfare has enabled them to develop both a large system of watchtowers, and tortoise-style formations. They have few agile troops, except for small elite cavalry units.

The Stempa have a scattered religion, pieced together from the local spirits of their ancestors. Each city reveres a different deity, and acknowledges the existance of all six, although they each claim theirs is best. The deities in question? I dunno, I'm running out of time.

Their magic? The Stempa have a number of clerics in each city, and a number of sorcerers. Their mages are best at defensive magic, like Shield, Wall of Stone, that sort of thing. They may also be able to cast Animate Object, as they're consumate builders and workers with tools.

And an interesting concept: Does this nation have to have a male warrior tradition? The females might well have been in charge of the kilns that provided them with the ability to make bricks (thence fortresses). They'd definitely have a different role, don't you think? Maybe not warriors, but there are possibilities...


OK, that's the Stempa dealt with. I think the Horse People are next.

The Horse People are a race of nomadic tribes from further inland. They have spent most of their time running around hunting animals, and recently learned how to ride horses - and even use bows. (They can't really be an established, stirrup-using people in this time period or they'd conquer everyone, very few questions asked.) Their tribes have been growing in the past couple of centuries.

They too are prone to internecine conflict, which promoted the ideals of mobile tribes. Each tribe has its own supply of shamans, but very little in the way of mages; however, a few are born sorcerers, although they have no formal organisation.

Recently, some of the tribes were brought together in an alliance. This happened when one strong tribe fought another tribe after it had been weakened in a battle, and assimilated it without conflict. With its enhanced numbers, the Horde discovered it was able to intimidate other tribes into joining. By no means have they all joined; other tribes just ran away into the endless plains. However, with a dozen tribes of warriors behind him, the leader of the Horde feels he's king of the world.

Having discovered potential conquests who can't run away (Cresia and Stempa), the Khan has set his sights on a new empire. And he has more soldiers than both nations can field between them.

Horse People technology is probably at the level of bronze. In the past, they attempted to invade Stempa and failed, but they came away with smelting techniques. Their magic is limited to shamanistic magic, similar to that of the ancient Cresians, and their sorcerer elites (who probably multiclass with Fighter to form an upper class of warriors who claim divine blood). However, their technology isn't too awesome compared to the Stempa, and their magic isn't too awesome compared to the Cresians.

Their griffins are probably tamed by the upper-class Godbloods.


Finally, there should be one other player. The Exiles seem to be a good idea... a distinct magocracy on an island somewhere to the South. It would have to be a big island, though.

The Exiles are outcasts who like fire and screwing around with nature. They value their independance, and their neutrality. They may trade with one or the other nations from time to time, perhaps just to 'see what happens'.

This opens up the next Big Thing: the biomancers enjoy creating weird new life forms, and from time to time they escape... or are set free out of curiosity. The Exiles drop them off on the mainland and watch with great interest. The griffins are one of theirs.

Interestingly, the Exiles have no priests. They have a few druids who embrace the less harmonious side of nature, but other than that they believe that they are the most important force in the world.


OK, that's set up. The Stempa fought off the Horse People before. The Exiles enjoy poking the mainland with a big stick. The Horse People's Godblood Khan wants new conquests, and thinks that if he moves around Stempa he can conquer Cresia (it's flat, for the most part, and less prone to vast fortifications; nomads don't do well in sieges). The Stempa and Exiles are, for now, on the sidelines.

Does this sound OK? Any more details that need adding?

 

[Dr. Strangemonkey]

Re: Three way battle royale

One concern I have is that the thread was initially designed to make at least vaguely informed speculation about what happened when Vancian magic got added to armed conflict.
Adding two other cultures simultaneously adds elements of diplomacy and politics to our otherwise straightforward military theory.
Having said that, I'll suggest a martial Sparta-style culture with iron weapons and advanced mundane technology.
I think the Cresians will make mincemeat out of any animal-riding culture fairly quickly.
aja

Actually, I think the elements of diplomacy and politics complete our straightforward military theory for two and a half reasons.

First, all military theory has to exist in the light of political and diplomatic realities or strategy becomes a sort of moot point.

Second, I think that Vancian magic adds some interesting twists to the political and diplomatic aspects of this military campaign.

2.5, I agree with your argument in principal but I think we can keep the political and diplomatic aspects limited enough to keep the tactics in the central light.

That said, I think the Stempa, great name, should have a range of city cultures from wildly militaristic Spartan-like cities on the one hand to wildly intellectual 'Athens'-like cities on the other end of the spectrum with a few very mercantile Corinth cities on another pole and most everyone else ending up as some sort of mix of the extremes.

I like the Horse Lords a lot S/lash, but I would ask that we make one change. The Horse Lords have to be chariot users. We've had too many cool posts on the possibilities of chariots to not explore that aspect. That being said I would second the nomination of the HorseLords as the major power with the following caveat.

Since we have to make them chariot based anyway, let's prevent them from overwhelming everyone by giving them very long supply lines. Say the heart of their empire is a distant river valley in which the wealthiest culture of their empire lives. Then they become more like an Egyptian empire under the Hyksos or Persians who could only rely on Babylon rather than Babylon, Egypt, and Croesius empire for supply centers. In this scenario the chariots can be integrated into the cavalry as the fighting platforms of their too civilized allies and wizards.

If we were finally willing to integrate humanoids and demi-humans I would argue that we should introduce the Khanate as a cultural mix between humans or some sort of smart demi-human and centaurs. That way the Cressian advantage against animal based cavalry is moderated.

I think the Magocracy should be heavily and secretly influenced by exiles and that while they are good at fire their native power is over wind or water. That way we can get in a good naval power for the Cressians to fight. I'd love to see a culture that was arcane casters backed up by paladin bodyguards and monk-style sailors. That would fit the requirement for a highly mobile enemy with diverse interests and elite forces.

The Cressians could have had some contact with these guys as trading partners, we'll say that a culture of sorcerors and wizards is pretty interested in trade. Precious precious somehow intrinsically magical gems... ...and that relationships have been relatively amicable. Which is why the Cressians are surprised by the very familiar faces and tactics being employed by the Magocracies expeditionary forces in Stempa.

If we really wanted to make it complicated we should create a nifty balance of power agreement between the Khanate and the Magiocracy so that a large part of the war becomes a shadow war as the Cressians attempt to intercept Magiocratic support so that they can prove an illegal move on the part of the Magiocrats and force the Khannate to aid them in expelling the new Jongan forces from the Stempa conflict.

That might be too political, but I would like to see the possibilites of this level of magic for foriegn policy and espionage explored.

This is overall looking pretty cool.

We need more names and a better fleshed out geography. I can come up with a pretty good idea of Stempan history, culture, and geography from what we have so far. We need a better idea of what surrounds and makes up Cressia and the other nations. I would like it if there were still areas of wilderness or open ocean surrounding most of Cressia. Makes a balance of power a little bit easier than if Cressian is surrounded and gives us room to play around in later.

I know psionics are right out, but I wonder how much play we might have with something like shugenja, no concrete suggestion just know, simply looking at what our long term options might be.

 

[GladiusNP]

If the Magocracy are good at fire magic, maybe they can introduce iron? They should definitely be good sailors. I think they should be like Vikings - this keeps them as a bit player for the most part (they aren't conquerors, just raiders), but raiding parties could clash with all of the forces, at various times.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't vikings (actually a branch called the Rus) serve as mercenaries to the Byzantines? This also brings these Magocracy raiders into the service of the other armies - mixing up magic and sort of blending styles to push along advancement.

Perhaps each party of the Magocracy raiders is lead by a wizard, who captains his own ship. These wizards aren't the landholders who rule the Magocracy, but are trying to win enough plunder to become a land-holder/ be accepted as a husband for a rich bride, and then get to sit around researching various ways of biomancing up all sorts of creatures. The real power is back home - these guys are just trying to move one step up the ladder.

The human warriors that they command could be magically augmented as well - though probably not permanently, except for the most elite soldiers. Definitely a good thing that the Magocracy are too far to really invade - difficult opponents.

Definitely need names! Magocracy, if we go the viking route should have a germanic/scandanavian sort of name. Anyway, I'm picturing the rivermouth delta that the Cressians live on flowing south into the ocean, coming out from a peninsula, now conquered by Cresia, as is the isle of Jonga to the south. Far to the SW, we'd have the Magocracy, sending out ships to the mainland. To the northwest, the source of the river is the mountains that the Stempa live in. Since travel is difficult, this explains why the city-states have developed their own mini-cultures as they spread out, though they share a religion, language, and general beliefs, having spread from one tribe originally. These mountains run NE to SW , with only a few passes crossing in to Cresia from the lands beyond the mountains. Beyond the mountains, after a few Stempa cities in the foothills (too provide allies/border skirmishes to the Khanate) we pretty much need to have some fairly barren land, otherwise the Kahnate can set up right next to the Stempa/ Cresians, and do what they like. Beyond these wastes, we have the river valley home of the Khanate.

One last point. If supply is going to temper the strength of the Khanate, as I think it should, we really need to have them use chariots. Nomadic horsemen are too self-sufficient. The Khanate needs to have wagons with supplies, spare parts, extra chariot teams, lots of javelins, etc. Otherwise these guys will pretty much have the run of the place, with mobile, efficient warriors, that are pretty tough to counter.

Anyway, that's my opinion. Look forward to hearing the rest of yours.

 

[Tonguez]

It seems to me that with RW sitting out we are getting nowhere fast.

What I suggest then is using the 'Map' described by GladiusNP we each create a Army of 10.000 from one of the Nations described or mentioned earlier in the 'brainstorm' (your choice) and then have them move against Cressia initally and then against each other as each new army is presented.

Developing strategies and counter strategies with each turn and acquiring new 'technology' organically.

Limitations

Spell Level 5
Monster CR 0-5* (Each Monster type is a 'technology')
4 starting 'Technologies' (more can be gained in game)

eg Cressian Tech = Druids, Bronze, Beastmen, Horticulture)
eg Jongan Tech = Bards, Fire, Ships, Bronze)
*PC Classes are 'Technologies' NPC classes are 'free'

The 'Map' (na GladiusNP)

I'm picturing the rivermouth delta that the Cressians live on flowing south into the ocean, coming out from a peninsula, now conquered by Cresia, as is the isle of Jonga to the south. Far to the SW, we'd have the Magocracy, sending out ships to the mainland. To the northwest, the source of the river is the mountains that the Stempa live in. Since travel is difficult, this explains why the city-states have developed their own mini-cultures as they spread out, though they share a religion, language, and general beliefs, having spread from one tribe originally. These mountains run NE to SW , with only a few passes crossing in to Cresia from the lands beyond the mountains. Beyond the mountains, after a few Stempa cities in the foothills (too provide allies/border skirmishes to the Khanate) we pretty much need to have some fairly barren land, otherwise the Kahnate can set up right next to the Stempa/ Cresians, and do what they like. Beyond these wastes, we have the river valley home of the Khanate.

 

[ajanders]

The Stempan Army v1

Allright Tonguez...I'll open the bidding then.

The Stempan city states are set in the mountains, which means a lot of potentially diverse critters and a lot of good mining. So given that, I'll add some clerics and see what we can do.

Stempan Society
The Stempans are a lawful people who exist in a strict hierarchy. There's a big deity on top with a lot of little deities under it. Each of those deities has clerics under them. Each of those clerics has citizens and soldiers under them.
A typical city state would be a theocracy worshipping one little deity and acknowledging the rest with varying degrees of affection: this would generally dictate how their diplomacy worked.
To the Stempans, war between city-states is therefore an act of worship, and everyone contributes.
Depending on the exact relationship between the two minor deities, various "Rules of engagement" may be honored in a conflict between city states, some of which would appear comical to outsiders (combat by single champions, combat with only the favored weapons of the deities, subdual damage or "counting coup" only, combat with only clerical spells, combat without any clerical spells, etc...)
The Stempans have a reasonable level of technology and a decent standard of living: this has attracted various humanoids to their cities where they are fitted into the social hierarchy wherever is most appropriate. For most of them, that's in the rapidly developing social class of "those who fight", which is controlled and led by "those who pray" and supported by "those who work".

The Stempan army thus consists of 10, 000 people and things (which are also people). Their strengths include:
1. Clerics (Various domains, but each city state will have only two available, one of which must be Law).
2. Iron: both for weapons and armor.
3. Mining and Stonework: they routinely build with stone in their cities and dig shaft mines for minerals.
4. Servant monsters: Ogres.

In a mountain culture, the army is probably infantry again, but equipped with and comfortable in using a variety of weapons, particularly in light of the rules of honor often invoked in their local fights.

 

[Sarellion]

How about making one of these kingdoms a nonhuman one or is this out of the question?

 

[s/LaSH]

Grargh... I was going to post this twelve hours ago, but couldn't use the Net. If it's a little outdated, please forgive me. Anyway, here's what I though back in those days of yore:

About the Khanate:

I suppose their increased civilisation is beneficial to the scenario. However, I suggest that it's relatively new to them; they conquered their 'bread-basket' in the past few generations, and so there are still nomadic tribes out there (with little bearing on the coming battle, however). They rule a nation, but the people aren't their own... not that they care.

As a name? Why don't we try something simple, like the Jinn? (I base this off two factors: Genghis Khan's birth name was Temujin, and Jin roughly means 'person' in Japanese).

Their elite Godbloods can have both griffins and chariots, and their troops have good light weaponry - especially bows, developed to counter rival tribes' mobile raiders. They might not have much iron, and definitely can't make it; that's left to the magocracy.

About the Magocracy:

I do like the idea of sorcerer lords on longships. That actually gives meaning to the old stereotype of the sorcerer in his tower going, "I rule you all hahaha". The question is, do they have longships or something different? I don't think tech has advanced to the point where they can develop such efficient raiding vessels, but they are definitely capable of making galleys or triremes... which rely on slaves to row when the wind dies down. Triremes are by necessity limited to fairly coastal regions, because they won't hold together in rough seas, but with limited control over the sea and sky the magocracy can get around this problem for their raids.

As for a name: My deutsch is getting a little rusty, and I can't find a dictionary, but the word Auslander came to mind when considering the idea of an island ruled by exiles from somewhere else. Extrapolating from that, why don't we call their island Ausel, and the people Auselen? (Pronounced: OWSE-ell-enn). They use it as a badge of pride, as the word in their language (descended from Jongan and Cresian mixed with the local tongue) has connotations of superiority. Like "I've escaped your foolish social order'.


Right now the Stempa don't have much reason to get involved in the conflict, I notice. That's probably a good thing, because now they can be dealt with on a case-by-case basis; perhaps the Cresians might seek an alliance with one city or another, setting off political chain reactions in Stempa areas.


The humanoid question: Do humanoids even exist right now? The Auselen have the ability to create them, and in fact may already have begun to do so with servant races (I'm thinking halflings because they're unobtrusive). If they do ever come about, it's likely to be as a result of magical meddling by Auselen mercenary-mages.


The geography question: The Jongan island was defined by RW as being to the West of Cresia. That means the Cresian River comes from the North-East (roughly speaking). It serves as a thoroughfare for Cresian traffic, and flows from the Stempan mountains. Thus, there is some trade between the Stempa and the Cresians both along the river and along the coast.

The Auselen island lies to the south, across a channel from Cresia. The channel is quite wide, perhaps a hundred miles - Jonga was 30 miles offshore. Ausel itself is quite big, at least a hundred miles across, and while it's not as luxurious as Cresia, it's still capable of supporting its population. The raiders aren't focused on bringing back food or slaves so much as proving themselves and getting treasure (good slaves count).

Ausel is probably covered with jungle, dry tropical forest, or maybe some kind of conifer (if we're assuming this exercise is Northern hemisphere). Perhaps a combination? The conifers grow on the mountains, while the lowlands are jungle or cleared pasture.

The Auselen Channel comes off the West Sea and disappears somewhere in the East. We don't know how far the continent extends up beyond Stempa, but we don't really care. As far as we know, Cresia occupies the entire bottom-left corner.

The Jinn come from a series of moors, highlands and hilly countries (no mountains) to the East or north-east of Cresia. There's a mountain range between them and Cresia, but it stops parallel with Stempa, so an invasion force could concievable march around there (there are perhaps two hundred miles between Stempa and the mountains). Their territory extends for five or six hundred miles beyond the mountains, to an area similar to Cresia on the southern coast of the continent that's perhaps 500 miles across.

The rivers are very important. Cresia is divided by the Cresian River which starts in Stempa, and it's a mainstay of freight and communication with their enhanced fleet capabilities. Freshwater dolphins and whales now exist, and the river has been dug out along a central spine to allow many ships to pass that way. It's one of the wonders of the world. Similarly, the Jinn bread-basket province is also housed around a river, flowing from the North and fed by streams flowing through the hills from the separating mountain range. The rest of their territory is open, rough and comparatively infertile.

The entire 'battlefield' extends 1000 miles north to south (Stempa 400 miles of rough terrain, Cresia another 400, the Auselen channel 100 and Ausel itself another 100). From east to west, it's about nine hundred and thirty miles (Jonga to Cresia: 30, Cresia: 400, another 50-100 miles of mountains, then 300-350 miles of broken Jinn terrain and 200 miles of the breadbasket province, seat of the Khan and the Godbloods).

This does pose problems for the Jinn: they have to send their troops about 700 miles from the furthest reaches of their realm to reach the easy passage around the mountains, and then another 4-600 to reach the heart of Cresia (should they be able to penetrate that far).

I think snow can be expected only in the mountains or during cold winters in North Stempa, so that's not really a problem. We're still north of the Tropics, so no monsoon-type weather can realistically be expected. Winter may be cold, but it won't kill armies.

Right, that about covers my contributions this time around. I shall return...

 

[Dr. Strangemonkey]

Hey, I think the Jinn having most of their nomads as Centaurs is an idea that needs implementing. We needs a demi-human race and the chariots will still let us use traditional anti-cavalry tactics against them without making them totally devastating. Also, I would like to posit that the Centaur take over of the River of Heaven was a joyous occasion through which the demon possessed prior rulers were destroyed. The Khan is thus a savior who generously shares much of his power with the elite wizards and clerics who aided his takeover, they are now formed into a beauracracy/church/academy known as the Celestial towers while the Khan's personal followers and administrators/chieftains are known as the Khan's Table Men, referring not to a piece of furniture but rather the unusual rock formation on which they must meet, pledge to the Khan, and feast twice a year. The family of the Khan are strictly of Centaur blood but the table includes among its number most of the remaining god-blooded members of the deposed order. Men from whom the Khan's shamans were able to dispell the demonic taint. They are strictly loyal to the Khan and have been given the secret of riding griffins.

That being said.

The Jinn have five Tamarchs under the Auspices of the Khan and Heaven. Each Tamarch is a more or less permanent military formation consisting of ten thousand men, resources to support them, and supporting personnel from the Heavenly Beauracracy and the Table of the Khan. Three of the Tamarchs have been given their own border to defend. Another Tamarch occupies and protects the river valley and the fifth Tamarch serves the Khan in his travels. Each Tamarch is lead by a council consisting of one high officer from the tower, the table, and the ranks, a member of the royal family not in direct line for the throne, a supply officer, a cartographer, and presided over by the apointed general of the Khan. This system is designed to simultaneously be representative of the diverse interests of the Tamarch, prevent the Tamarch moving to coup, and keep the authority of tactical command cleanly and clearly in the hands of the very competent and clever appointed general.

Each tamarch is subdived into 20 wings of 500. These wings rotate between the five Tamarchs on a regular basis and have a command corp paralleling that of the Tamarch though the royal blood representative is absent and as is the representative of the ranks. The rotation enforces a loyalty to the khan as opposed to the Tamarch and ensures that each Tamarch has soldiers familiar with the duty of every other Tamarch in its ranks at all times. Each Tamarch includes in its rank a specialist scouting/intelligence/translation wing, which does not rotate, two engineering/siege wings, a police wing, which only rotates out officers on an individual basis, a wing dedicated to the celestial towers, and a wing of the King's Table

The eight thousand men of the fighting wings are enlisted for 16 years though most spend at least six of those years in garrison duty, training, and serving in less elite formations. They are rotated to a new Tamarch every two years. Centaur members of the Wing are allowed to participate in family life as their naturaly nomadic nature and communal attitude towards child-rearing make this less problematic than among more humanoid troops. Other troops must seek special permission to marry and maintain a family. Many members of the Tamarch are descendents of prior members.

Each wing consists of two two hundred man fighting units and fifty man special group containing the officer's corp and the units support troops. One of the two hundred man groups is invariably Centaur and the other consists of humanoids from the various subject or neighboring peoples. The two hundred man groups are further dubdivided into groups of fifty and then ten. The Centaur group will generally be evenly split between heavy and medium cavalry. The Humanoid groups are more various as the Jinn attempt to take account of local specialties or needs, though one will be a light mobile formation with wilderness skills, but at least half of the group will consist of highly disciplined medium infantry trained to fight in a variety of formations, sieges, foritifications, and to ride into battle on the backs of Centaurs or chariots and then dismount. The special group specializes in the use of chariots, war engines, and unusual mounts and will always include a great many spell casters. Wings are the basic order of march and will make us of many carriages and servitors such as minor golems, undead, herd animals, and paid workers to care for them.

All Centaurs are armed with ranged weapons. The standard weapon is a composite bow adjusted for Centaur strength. These are a highly revered part of their equipment. Medium cavalry is also armed with light lances, lassoes or whips, flails, and hatchetts and armored with light barding such as cotton, leather, or shell and a medium shield. They are also trained to abandon much of their armor and act as light cavalry and many are expereinced enough to use a buckler and either another weapon of a large flail. Heavy cavalry is armed with heavy lances, scalloped axes or great clubs, and bolas and armored with medium barding such as chain or scale mail or properly treated hide armor, a surcoat for splendour and weather, and a large shield. Officers and NCOs are fairly likely to have enchanted weapons and unusual equipment. Each group will have a pair of signals officers and their command staff. They are also likely to have a pair with training in magic use at least one of whom will be a cleric, druid, or shaman. In battle these groups are very often accompanied by a chariot of special troops with stronger magic and unusual equipment.

The medium infantry are armed with light bows or slings, generally a mixture, darts, nets, light lances, morning stars, and entrenching tools, not at all the term they would use for it but equivalent to very utilizable hatchets, and armored with large shields and either hide or scale. They are also accompanied by signals officers and will always have someone trained in divine magic among them. Many of them will be equipped with alchemical items.

The Jinn are adept at fast fortifications and will have several put up before an anticipated battle, but their primary strength is fast marching and good scouting. A Tamarch can march much faster than most armies and is also very adept at confusing enemy scouts and spell casters, enabling them to engage the enemy on their own terms and occupy key positions quickly. They make use of very dispersed marching orders using their fluid organization and the rapidity of griffin couriers/scouts.

In battle they work to surround the enemy and baffle him with extensive missle fire, very mobile well supported magic users, confusing formations, and infantry that will quickly deploy in favorable terrain. They reserve shock assets until the enemy has been sufficiently softened or confused to make a charge a killing blow and the enemies magical resources exhausted.

They are very cautious in the face of enemy magic, as they were much affected by the hordes of undead they faced in conquering the river valley. They are also very cautious about supply, having learned long ago the importance of it in desert fighting and the advantages of plentiful ammunition. They dislike sieges, though they also recognize their necessity and love artillery in the field.

In the case of an extended war the response will likely consist of a Tamarch, two in an extreme situation, backed up by militia, less elite formations, garrison units, and conscripts.

That's what I got for now.

 

[s/LaSH]

Centauric Jinn do have a small problem: the standard centaur is CR3, making the Tamarchs vastly elite compared to standard armies of the West - their basic soldier (in half the Tamarch) is much better than any human conscript and could probably beat many veterans in one-on-one combat.

Further, the question of the number of Tamarchs comes to mind. Do the Jinn really need to defend their borders? If so, from what? Or who? As a recently nomadic people, I'd be surprised if they quickly developed a knack for defensive warfare (as opposed to the high mobility nomads espouse).

The centaurs might have a place in the coming conflict, or might already have a presence - but I strongly recommend scaling them back. Perhaps the Auselen modified a single tribe of nomads, and the Khan and his kin are centaurs (which enabled them to dominate their neighbours one-on-one), but their numbers are limited to a few thousands.

As for the Tamarchs: I suppose I can envision the Jinn having border patrols, and they would probably be structured in the aforementioned fashion, albeit with far fewer centaurs. Warponies would be common amongst the skirmish cavalry wings, but no human heavy cavalry (the centaurs fill that role). Perhaps half a Tamarch is cavalry; the rest is foot soldiers (although they too might have horses or ponies, they don't have the skill to ride them in battle, and many of the Heaven River troopers don't have horses at all).

It's unlikely that the Jinn will have much skill in siege warfare. Historically, nomads such as the Mongols were horribly bad at sieges; I don't know why. With maybe one third - one half their troops drawn from the Heaven River people, they will have some knowledge of how cities work, but the Heaven River people were fairly much unified under their demonic rulers and never had to participate in siege warfare so they don't understand it either. The only way the Jinn could beat fortified opponents was to encircle their cities and starve them out; the demon rulers started preying on their own people and were largely overthrown by their disgruntled subjects, although Jinn soldiers smuggled into the cities by insurgents did a lot of the fighting.

Golems are unrealistic at this point. Official sources cite them as requiring Limited Wish at the least, and that's well beyond current magical technology. Homonculi and animated objects are possible, however.

The rest of Strangemonkey's suggestions are good.

All right, I think the antagonist is detailed: the Jinn want to invade Cresia for its fertile ground. Now we need to know the rough capabilities of Cresia, Stempa and Ausel. (The last two are technically bystanders, but they're sure to take sides.)

Cresia is not a warlike state. They maintain a standing army, not being stupid; I'd surmise it has perhaps 10,000 soldiers. Perhaps one thousand beastmen (the elite Delta) serve as special forces; while not part of the above-mentioned armed forces, Cresia can also field maybe two thousand druids and sorcerers higher than first level. (Note that they can probably triple their troops with conscription.) Separate to this, they have a powerful navy, with perhaps two thousand large ships (one thousand are deep-sea capable, the rest are shallow-keeled riverboats and shore vessels). Each ship can carry perhaps 50 marines, although they only have about 4000 marines total. Each ship has two Controllers: these druids control the wind and the cetaceans that make the boat move. Finally, there are maybe 1000 scurvy sea dogs, arr, in the armed forces; they perform submarine patrols.

That makes roughly 17,000 soldiers or combat personell in Cresia. Now, they're technically the closest to Ausel, so they might have a few advantages from trade... of course, they also suffer the occasional raid, and so most of their naval forces are foundon the south coast. Their land armies are found more along the Stempan border, because of a little belligerance on a certain city-state's part in the past. That said, I think they'd probably have a few Auselen secret weapons - combat monsters. No aquatic monsters (the Auselen enjoy their aquatic dominance), and the beasts aren't too mobile so they can't interrupt raids... anyone have any ideas?

As for the Stempa, they're militarily strong but divided. They could probably equal the Jinn in raw numbers, and their troops are likely to be a little tougher and better-equipped (tower shields, plate armour, long spears and effective swords, as well as their bows (picked up from the Jinn centuries ago)). However, they don't see themselves as being a part of this conflict.

The Auselen have a warrior culture too, except they tend to rely on magic a lot more - even their frontline soldiers are expected to pick up a few spells. I surmise that they'd be limited to perhaps a thousand keelships, each with a crew of one hundred sorcerer-warriors (some of whom are elite high-level types). Each keelship is owned by a different sorcerer-lord (some of whom are capable of casting sixth- and seventh-level spells, but these mighty types tend to stay home, having proven their worth). Ten thousand troops, tops - and most would probably stay at home. However, their magical prowess would likely be very important in a fight...

Any more thoughts? I think we need to determine how many Stempa city-states there are...

 

[Dr. Strangemonkey]

Centauric Jinn do have a small problem: the standard centaur is CR3, making the Tamarchs vastly elite compared to standard armies of the West - their basic soldier (in half the Tamarch) is much better than any human conscript and could probably beat many veterans in one-on-one combat.

Further, the question of the number of Tamarchs comes to mind. Do the Jinn really need to defend their borders? If so, from what? Or who? As a recently nomadic people, I'd be surprised if they quickly developed a knack for defensive warfare (as opposed to the high mobility nomads espouse).

The centaurs might have a place in the coming conflict, or might already have a presence - but I strongly recommend scaling them back. Perhaps the Auselen modified a single tribe of nomads, and the Khan and his kin are centaurs (which enabled them to dominate their neighbours one-on-one), but their numbers are limited to a few thousands.

As for the Tamarchs: I suppose I can envision the Jinn having border patrols, and they would probably be structured in the aforementioned fashion, albeit with far fewer centaurs. Warponies would be common amongst the skirmish cavalry wings, but no human heavy cavalry (the centaurs fill that role). Perhaps half a Tamarch is cavalry; the rest is foot soldiers (although they too might have horses or ponies, they don't have the skill to ride them in battle, and many of the Heaven River troopers don't have horses at all).

It's unlikely that the Jinn will have much skill in siege warfare. Historically, nomads such as the Mongols were horribly bad at sieges; I don't know why. With maybe one third - one half their troops drawn from the Heaven River people, they will have some knowledge of how cities work, but the Heaven River people were fairly much unified under their demonic rulers and never had to participate in siege warfare so they don't understand it either. The only way the Jinn could beat fortified opponents was to encircle their cities and starve them out; the demon rulers started preying on their own people and were largely overthrown by their disgruntled subjects, although Jinn soldiers smuggled into the cities by insurgents did a lot of the fighting.

Golems are unrealistic at this point. Official sources cite them as requiring Limited Wish at the least, and that's well beyond current magical technology. Homonculi and animated objects are possible, however.

The rest of Strangemonkey's suggestions are good.

Hmmm, I think the Centaurs work pretty well as a man on a well trained horse should be a fairly high CR in the first place and I am willing to accept a Centaur with dimished abilities. I think we need to account for the differences in combat created by fantasy races eventually and the Centaurs are a good opporunity to do so without sending us into the realm of night attacking orcs or what not.

Historically, nomadic empires have always felt the need to reorganize their military into semi-permanent formations. They do this in order to preserve the advantage of nomadic mobility and flexibility while keeping themselves prepared against incursions by civilized foes or vassal uprisings. Persians, Medes, and Mongols all did this. The huns kept a fairly normal nomadic culture but they also didn't try to rule anyone. I modelled the Tamarchs off of the Mongol system, but they could work during any period as they are basically big well organized and supported camps. Tamarchs also serve as schools and means to create a loyal 'middle class' out of cashed out veterans. Each Tamarch would operate with a great deal of autonomy and be allowed to participate in small scale conquest and looting in addition to defensive work.

While I agree that the Jinns won't be that great at siege warfare, each Tamarch can probably only pull off one good siege at a time, but the Mongols were actually very adept at siege warfare having learned a great deal from their conquests. Recall that it was the Mongols who took down the unassailable fortresses of the old man of the mountains. Siege units were elite units, however, and they were very rarely present in the forces that the Mongols sent to the west which is where their reputation for poor sieges comes from. The Persians and Medes were also very adept at sieges.

Sorry about the golems thing, I was thinking more along the lines of animated objects and servitors not the hulking combat machines we all know and love.

I may be operating under a misconception vs. the Jinn, early on in the thread I thought we were discussing the Jinn as a very very large empire bordering on strange peoples we had not even discussed as well as the Cressians. If we are considering a much smaller people than this scale certainly won't work. But if we are thinking on that scale then I see the Tamarch as the military formation the Cressians are most likely to face. Should the Cressians manage to repulse it when they face it, for what ever reason, than they will likely see no further threats from the Jinn for sometime.