Fantasy Arms Race, Round Two

The question, then, is "What do the Cresians do next?"

Do they hang back and recoup their losses? After being invaded, what, four or five times now, I'm getting the distinct idea that they're a little bleeped off and would quite enjoy putting an end to the Jongans once and for all. However, they themselves have suffered heavy losses...

Do they charge in and try to kill every Jongan they can see? Again, doubtful; they've learned enough about war to know that the Jongans would defend their homeland just as furiously as the Cresians did, and losses would doubtless be hideous; victory is not necessarily assured, even accounting for fog tactics and scurvy sea dogs (arr).

My bet would be on the Cresians demanding surrender from the Jongans. However many prisoners they took during the Battle of the Mists (not guaranteed to be many, seeing that the most effective combatants at that time were ravening beastmen), they can use them as hostages. I'm certain that a large number of Jongan lords would have been at the forefront of the battle, and would be very valuable to the Jongan people.

So the Cresians send one ship back to Jonga, perhaps cutting off the right hand of every man on board (they can use magic to heal the wound itself, although regeneration is centuries in the future, so they don't die on the table, so to speak). They send the message with them: "Surrender to our rule now. Convert to the worship of the Dog God, give us all your weapons, raze your forges, and institute a sizable Cresian garrison in a governor's fortress on your island, and you get your men back. If you don't, well, we send them back in pieces."

It's a harsh tactic, but remember, the Cresians have a history of punishment (the original schism between fire-users and the ancestors of the Dog Cult in Part One, as you recall). I fully expect they'd do it.

But do the Jongans actually surrender? Well, from their perspective, they just lost nearly their entire army. The Cresians are confident enough to demand surrender. But they're still fortified, they still have some elites held back, and they could guess that they hurt the Cresians fairly badly. The key question is, How badly? And, Can the troops they have remaining take out our defences? I think it could go either way, even considering the pride of a warlike people. As Worf once said: "There is no honour in defeat."

Of course, with the entire Jongan army defeated in the Cresian heartland, the Cresians are likely to acquire themselves some bronze weapons of their own. They're just lying there! Grab some shields, some swords, maybe some pikes or halberds if they were in use, and train all soldiers in their use (I expect that there would be more Jongan soldiers defeated, lethally or otherwise, than there are Cresians at this point). So the Cresians suddenly have technological equivalence with the Jongans (although they can't sustain it beyond the next few battles).

In a morale-sapping display, a Cresian ship can be pulled (I wrote 'sail' then realised the Cresians don't use 'em) past the Jongan barricade with bronze shields fastened to the sides, just to demonstrate how cool they are.

I think that, at this point, the Cresians are well past dismissing bronze on religious grounds. They've been on the recieving end for ten years, and now that they've got a huge supply of weapons and armour to their credit, they're quite willing to employ them for their own ends, even if they can't make the stuff... and they'll be more willing to research metallurgical techniques once they realise how useful this stuff is. Even if they don't use it in war, someone's going to hammer a sword into a plough, and say, "Hey, this is much better than this old wooden thing!". Metallic revolution is mere decades away... unless they start breeding darkwood (DMG pg243), of course.

Darkwood itself could be developed by the priesthood by breeding and modifying hardwood trees. If they've been doing this since the war started (noting the effectiveness of Jongan armour technology), then they're probably beginning to reap the benefits about now... namely spears that are more effective (as masterwork weapons), shields that are less obstructive to the wielder (as -2 to armour check penalties), and of course enhanced ship hulls that are easier to haul and thus faster than their Jongan counterparts. While not well suited to slashing weapons or armour, darkwood is definitely an advantage to the Cresians. It's still only as tough as wood, though... the main advantage is in lightness.

From there, I'm guessing that tougher woods would be developed, but only over the next few hundred or thousand years... possibly woods that concentrate metal, like copperwood or the more advanced ironwood. But, for now, darkwood is as good as it gets. If it even gets.

PS: RW... what's that in your sig about d20 comics? I've been meaning to ask but forgot.
 
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Yeah,
As I said earlier I think the next evolution for the societies really depends on the Cressians ability to capture and integrate a large section of Jongans.
If that happens I can easily see the Cressians developing a metal culture, but otherwise I think they're kind of screwed. Metal culture is really hard to develop without trade or cultural exchange on a pretty massive scale. Once you've got it development is fairly easy, but the basic principles are very hard to develop or even acquire. And there is the issue of whether or not the Cressians even have access to the proper ores. Ironwood looks like an increasingly attractive alternative.
At this point I do have a couple of questions/observations.
It seems to me that the Jongans are a lot less isolated than the Cressians. What happens with regard to the rest of their international relations as they suddenly become increasingly changed by conflict with the Cressians?
I mean when the Knossians or what not show up at the Jongan island and see that the ports are all inland and the forests are all burned down they'd be stupid not to take advantage of the situation by either aiding the Jongans or contacting the Cressians.
If there are other nations the Jongans are at war with then that goes double. When fewer Jongan raiders show up, that's when you begin contemplating a counterattack or at least building your own navy.
 

I think we should leave the question of other neighboring cultures to RangerWickett. However, given their track record, I think we can safely say that the Jongans will come up short in the friendly relations department.
 

Personally I think its time for Closure on the Cressian-Jongan Neolitihic-Bronze Age and time for a leap forward to Turn 3.

SO RW what is it going to be? - Iron Age perhaps

and are we sticking with the Cressian Empire?:)
 

Ciaran said:
I think we should leave the question of other neighboring cultures to RangerWickett. However, given their track record, I think we can safely say that the Jongans will come up short in the friendly relations department.

I didn't mean to suggest that anything should be otherwise. Merely interested in suggesting the possible 'global' consequences of this conflict.
 

I'm ready to move forward, with an assumption that there's maybe one or two small skirmishes, enough for the Cresians to steal some women and weaponsmiths before they realize they don't have enough manpower right now to wipe them out. I'm not personally too clear on how technology developed historically after bronze age levels, so perhaps someone more historically-knowledgable would like to take the reigns for the logistical aspects of this upcoming conflict.

As for the conflict itself, we've already explored summon spells, and we ended up with some interesting uses for charm creature spells for primitive 'sailing', so maybe we should go forward to something with large-scale warfare. In a few more hundred years (or less? historians, help me out), the Cresians have expanded beyond their simple delta flat, having a country that spans over 400 miles wide, including the Jonga island, which was assimilated into their culture maybe a few decades after the initial conflict, because the Cresians' homeland was more fertile. They also conquered or assimilated other countries as they came across them, since few were as experienced in fighting as they were.

The Cresians eventually ran into other peoples who were not hostile enough to provoke invasions, or too strong for them to want to fight, and so now we have a more familiar map of nations, with a sea to the south, and one nation each to the east, west, and north. Of course there are occasional conflicts, but there hasn't been a huge war, the kind that changes borders dramatically, for a long while.

Now we're going to get to more field-based tactics, and less "How can we rape and pillage most effectively?" With the new conflict, we'll have armies meeting to fight in huge groups of tens of thousands at a time. I'm no historian, but in case that seems a little iffy to you, I know for a fact that Alexander the Great had armies upwards of 500,000 men, so 10 or 20 thousand is really not that much.

So, what nifty tactics do we want for the next conflict? We still have the existing Cresian skills: the 'fog of war,' shapeshifting warriors (now improved to a fine art, with very few berserkers), control of animals and plants, and howling magic to deafen their foes. They are now willing to use fire to make weapons and armor, and to destroy buildings and structures, but their magic users don't seem to be able to create powerful magical fire; it seems to not mesh with their way of magic. Also, their religion generally makes them less willing to burn fields and woodlands. They also learned magic to charm people and empower their armies from the Jonga.

The opponents in the next conflict will probably again have superior technology, since we seem to primarily be letting the Cresians have the fun magic-wise. A few Jonga may have traveled from their homeland before it was conquered, and shared their skills with fireballs and counter-magic. On a more mundane side, what do you think about cavalry for the opponents, and maybe the spear wall? A spear wall is a good way to avoid being caught off guard by Cresians sneaking through the fog.

Tell me what you think we should do next.
 

I'm no pre-Roman civilisation buff myself, so I can't really comment on the state of technology. However, as magic screws up the sequence of technological development, there are no guarantees that fantasy history will parallel our own...

Anyway, the new setup does seem ripe for one particular scenario: politicking. You've got four nations including the Cresian Empire, and I suspect each of them will have their own rough specialty (the Cresians with their magic, the Other Side with their technology, and perhaps a couple of others with other things... necromancy? flying horses? living in caves? keeled ships with sails? I don't know).

When a war breaks out between the Cresians and the Other Side, what are the other two nations doing? Are they saying 'hey, we're completely unconcerned and will stay out of this'? Is one or both interested in stopping the war so the victor won't start eyeing them next? Do they encourage the war so they can conquer the weakened survivors and move on the fourth nation? Do they ally with one side or the other? Publically, or in secret?

The larger political landscape is going to be the most interesting part of this new war. Oh, and the idea of vast armies clashing, Hippocrates-style... that's just cool. I'll have to crack out my ancient texts at some point, I can tell. (Even if the Father Of All Historians does record with great gravity tales of flying snakes and the crystal construction technology of Nigeria.)

This setting is already getting quite interesting, with shapechangers dominating the battlefield, the employment of short-duration summons in short, furious battles, and the cetacean navy... I can only see it getting weirder as we go along. Is this the true face of a D&D world? If so, I like it.
 

mmmm, pre-Roman civilization....

Technology changes slowly during this period. Interesting innovations can be made and lost pretty easily, but the chance of them catching on an doing much is fairly slim. Different nations are going to have very different ways of doing things, but technology gaps aren't going to exist as we know them. There will pretty much just be different ways of doing things.

Agricultural and nautical technology are limited exceptions. People with Triremes and better horses have significant advantages over those who don't.

I'm reading Herodotus this very instant! Or rather I have been reading him for a week or two alongside all the other things I have to read or choose to read.

He's really more interested in culture than anything else, however, for the real classical conflicts I would hit Thucydides.

Xenophon's March up the Country, Anabasis, is a military classic with astounding details and insight into what it takes to actually march an army from one place to another place. Alexander's grand strategy for conquering Persia is said to have been inspired by this account. It's also pretty short and there are easy to read translations.

Though, again, this is a situation much removed from those specifically, and wonderfully, Greek historians.

In the ancient world army size and kindom development can vary wildly. The armies of up to half a million did occur, but they were pretty rare and required Imperial power to put together.

Ten to twenty thousand is a pretty impressive number in its own right, but is a good number for large military efforts during periods with a fair amount of prosperity and organized large kingdoms who spend some time in conflict.

Four hundred years is some time, but makes sense given how largely unpopulated this world seems to be and the inclusion of the Jongans.

What's the common Cressian city or cultural center pattern like, and what are the notable exceptions?

They have some nice coral fortifications by this point?
 

Check out this summary of Shang Culture (China BC 1500) is it just me or does that sound strangely similar to the Cressians! It has a seperation of its Rural and Urban life. Rural peasants live primitive lives using wooden implements to tend the soil and paying tribute to the local Lord (Druid/Dog Warrior) whilst within the walls of its cities dwell the Urban nobility and also the main religious functionaries (Clerics).

Okay here we find a useful Chronology and some interesting information on early civilisations which we can use as base fodder for our 'experiment

BC 3500
This is when
Sumer - the First Civilisation arose and saw invention of Writing and the Wheel.

By BC 3000 we have invention of the
Egyptian Square-rigged Sail


BC 2600
Marks the Egyptian Old Kingdom withs its Pyramids and Hieroglyphs.

I would suggest that this is about were our Story (ie the Cressian-Jongan Conflict) finds us.

The Cressian Empire has begun to expand and incorporates the Islands of Jongan the Hills of Fire and has now made contact with a number of other empires

Note: Only the Sumerians had Iron at this point and it does not become widely distributed till about BC 1000 - ergo only one of the Civilisation met by the Cresians should have Iron and even then it should be very rare. - but does mean Birth of the Iron Age

One of the civilisations which might be interesting to meet is
the
Minoan Culture BC 2000 - the First European Civilisation and home of the Minotaur:)!
Minoans appear to have had only female goddesses (no/few gods) which makes sense for the Cressians too:)


Another interesting facet of this era is that it saw the rise of both Hinduism and its associated Aesthetics- so we could have religious rivalry and both PSIONICS and MONKS coming into the scenario too:D


PS it is not until BC 330 that we encounter
Alexander the Great
 
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The pre-Iron Age era saw the rise of fortified cities, chariots, and large infantry units.

We already know that the Cressians have a history of Druidic magic and summoning but are reluctant to develop forging techniques and I suspect must metalwork is done either by non-Cressian citizens 9ie Jongans) or gain through trade.The Cressians have mainly used small skirmisher units in the past and larger units only rarely.

I think that at least one of the outher nations should thus get better Infantry and use of Chariots (increase speed and mobility on open ground) etc

It would also be interesting to see what happens when more powerful Evocations are introduced to combat - so can we have a nation of specialist Arcane Magic using Heavy Artillery.




Also so check out these Ancient Artifacts for possible inspriation on our Tech vs Magic in War scenarios
 
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