Fantasy Arms Race, Round Two

[Dr. Strangemonkey]

I don't know how effective the range finding tactic is against any sort of serious force. Arrows are only so effective against most armors until you get to the very high end of development. I have no idea what the effectiveness of firing blind with arrows is, I don't know how much actual impact it would have. On the other hand, taking fire while surrounded by fog and fighting a lycanthrope has to be really demoralizing.

An earlier post mentioned the Cressians using longbows, but I always saw them as a more javelin and spear oriented culture. Not to denigrate their access to competent archers when they need them. I just don't know where they would pick up longbows.

Poisoned arrows on the other hand...

So where we at in the war? Are the Cressians and the Ta'jinn still primarily skirmishing along the edges of conflicts in Stempa as they both contemplate invasion?

Anyone want to guess what the Stempan clerics think of all this? Surely some of the neutral cities are begining to contemplate which way they should fall, and the allied cities are reconsidering their situation as more and more allied troops enter the conflict and then ignore their interests.

Surely both sides are looking at the Stempan heavy armor formations and considering how they might be of use?

I see the initial conflict breaking down into zones and strategic questions really quickly.

The Ta'jinn with the superior speed and archery are going to gain rapid superiority on any open ground.

The Cressians with the superemely flexible formations and superior light infantry are going to dominate any rough or forested terrain.

Both sides are going to have their advantages reinforced by their rapid fortification abilities and professional corps of officers. The Cressian are eventually going to suffer when they have to stop relying on the reserves of semi-professional regular soldiers that the belong to the orders and heirarchy and have to start drawing from their militia, but they have a huge pool to draw on and holy fervor in their favor.

So both sides are going to have an environment in which to play around and experiment with new tactics in until either the invasions begin or the Stempans start to influence the conflict.

I think the new Cressian foritification and blindfire tactics are a perfect example of the sort of things that are going to develop in the Stempa conflict.

The Ta'jinn are likely going to start honing their expertise at fire tactics and developing crusader formations. Their medium infantry are going to gain greater prestige in the formations as the Ta'jinn begin shifting them to the outside of their formations in any terrain in which an ambush is possible. The Centaurs have superior range on the Cressians and can fire from the inside of the formations benefitting from the heavier shields and closer formations of the infantry. The infantry also serve to slow down deltanes so that the centaurs can then reinforce them without getting a Deltane on their backs or disrupting their ranks, absorb spells, and give the Centaurs time to determine where a counterattack should go.

Both sides are going to get a lot better at night attacks, but the Ta'jinn in particular. Ta'jinn medium infantry are going to become very adept at wielding burning weapons come the full moon.

In terms of increasing magic sophisitication, how long do you think it takes for the Ta'jinn to start casting elarged detect magic spells and targeting buffed druids and deltanes?

I think this war is going to get nastier rather than nicer thanks to the political limitations and small force sizes.

 

[dglass]

Between this thread and playing Age of Mythology I must say I'm inspired. I was pondering what each army might use as a signature weapon.

I think it would be cooler if the Cressians used spear throwers. The reason spear throwers were replaced by bows is that bows make better hunting weapons. However, some peoples continued to use spear throwers after bows were being used elsewhere in the world. Aztec warrior greeted (and pierced the armor of) the Spanish conquistadors with the atlatl. The Australian aborigines woomera was a multi-purpose tool used as a weapon, digging stick, fire stick, handle for a stone chisel blade, and a percussion instrument. The Intuit had a similar device but used it for spear fishing.

I would give the Auselen the khopesh. An Egyptian weapon sometimes called a sickle-sword. For a ranged weapon how about the longbow?

For the Ta'jinn I wonder if you could use a glaive like a lance or would the shaft break? Centaur charge attacks are deadly.

Composite bows are not really that difficult an invention and an Iron Age culture such as the Stempan should have them already. A weapon that might be developed during the war is the crossbow. Invented by the Chinese these are much more scary weapon then they are portrayed in the PHB. They are as powerful as composite bows but less expensive. Really good archers take years to develop the muscles and stamina. When other armies pick up on the crossbow the Stempan might still have another card to play. The Chinese also invented the repeating crossbow.

 

[Dr. Strangemonkey]

I like the idea of atlatls for Cressians. Really makes a lot more sense to me as a general weapon given the extreme foliage of their environment and emphasis on spears as a weapon.

I think nearly all the cultures should have access to light bows, but I have to say that I only approve of the Ta'jinn having composite bows. Really good ones are extremely difficult to make so I can see Stempan nobility using them, but the Ta'jinn are going to be the only culture with both the wealth and the interest to outfit their whole force with them. Long bows are such a huge weapon advantage and require so much training that I could only see them as very culture defining and thus needing to be put in the big lists.

Someone should definitely be using Khopeshes, but they seem like very heavy and expensive weapons for a sea based culture. Maybe they are a symbol of office and only bodyguards and officers may use them.

Atlatls are a perfect idea for the Cressians.

Hmm, has anyone been able to come up with a scenario by which any of these cultures could discover a lycanthrope's vulnerability to silver?

I was also thinking that lycanthropic germ warfare is going to get nasty super fast. Were I the Ta'jinn I would kick any potentially infected people out of my camp right out, or execute them. All of which leads to the same affect of lots of infected and uncontrolled lycanthropes running around the Stempan countryside every full moon so that the infection is going to spread throughout the civilian population. In a few decades Stempa's going to look a lot less like Greece and a lot more like Transylvania.

 

[Morgenstern]

Atlatl for Cressia: I love it. Very fitting. Primitive, organic, and very effective . Forsee the druids developing a new low level spell the can grow servicable spears in modest numbers (caster level x2?) almost instantly, allowing units to quickly re-equip ad to expend ammo without fear. Also would simplify their suply lines and firm up their nature-loving, fire-hating tech base.

Short composite bows for Ta'jinn. The range of mongol bows is legenday, and the key to developing composite bows is not so much need, as access to materials. The semi-nomadic Ta'jinn have plenty of access to bone and sinew, materials that used in conjunction with wood lead to composite bows. I'd also advocate the pellet bow (as seen in the old Oriental Adventures) as a weapon with infinite ammo (you can always find more rocks) and as a delivery system for small magical packages (potion of explosions, miniture animated servant/spy to be recovered later). Long spears are the natural weapon of cavalry that engages in both charges and infighting. I can see the Ta'jinn centaurs using almost Japanese cavalry tactics. What I don't see the Ta'jinn having is much love for shields. A shield is simply not a practical device when you're a centaur (too much body to cover) or while flying on a griffon (do you really want a kite strapped to your arm with air going over you that fast?).

Crossbows for Stempa. Put the continent's most competent metalworking to use. Great for fortified positions (walled cities and forts), and positively armor piercing against whats out theree right now (might as well be using touch attacks compared to anyone else's armor). Crossbow however are really kinda heavy (no fun ot march around with) and like bows, dependant on quality ammunition. Should also be pointed out that our example culture, the Greeks, had an interesting habit of having cities full of ceramic potsherds. Broken triangular pieces of razor-sharp fired clay littering the streets (stuff breaks, that studd lasts forever...) so the populace became quite adept at throwing these little nasties at invaders. Strangely enough, crossed with metalworking, this could lead stempa to inventing the shuriken. Given that potsherds picked out of a gutter tend to have raw sewage on them, the notion of poisoning shurikens ain't a heckova leap...

As to the Ausel, why not take the time to get really good with thrown knives. Knives could be a suitable weapon for monks, working with their unarmed abilites, and adding some ranged support. They also have the virute of not (imediately) failing due to damp conditions, and don't drag you directly to the bottom of the sea if you go over the side. If they acquire some more viking raider feel, the a whole array of axes becomes posible, witht he hand axe filling the ranged combat niche.

Posible advances:
Cressia might also develop some sort of magic tree that can be used to fashion a limited number of +1 weapons (with holy rite allowing the fabrication of one +2 weapon per tree per year or something). Magically enhanced wood would allow them to skip some of the issues of not being big metal users.

Ta'jinn silver. The Ta'jinn have always held siver in high regard (associating it with the stars which are so important for finding your way around on the great plains). Nobles and ranking couriers of the khan have always had siver jewelry as a sign of office. When a dog warrior finally attacks one of these high ranking folks, he's gonna get burned on either a silver necklace, or possibly the few siver discs mixed into the mail on a ranking general's armor. Bamm! Person with siver survives. Effectiveness of siver discovered (and then tested) and demand for siver skyrockets. While the Ta'jinn have some, they're looking to buy more from anybody- possibly opening trade with some of the Stempa cities, or more ominously, involving the Ausel (who seem like they might have lots of silver...)

 

[s/LaSH]

Ah yes, the atlatl. Amazingly simple for a device that nearly doubles your range and accuracy. I'm certain that the Cresians would have them, especially as they're the descendants of plains hunters. Heck, they might have used them during the Jongan or even Cave People conflicts.

I was going to suggest that silver would be largely ceremonial amongst the Ta'jinn, actually, so go with that. It's pretty but not as practical as bronze, so only the high muckety-mucks would have silver in large quantities. It could take a while for a lycanthrope to get close to someone this important, though, so I give the discovery six months to a year because lycanthropes just aren't around that often. That's enough time for one military campaign, I reckon.

Anyway! The conflict!

Ta'jinn troops have begun to persecute the northern borders of Cresia, striking from Stempan bases. Superior ranged weapon technology means they can attack weaker fortifications and take them, but the bigger Cresian fortresses are seemingly impregnable (thanks to spells and tall walls) and the Cresian troops can escape into the wilds if given the chance.

The Ta'jinn have learned that Cresians can move through rough terrain better than them, which is embarassing for nomads. They have begun to coordinate encircling attacks with griffin scouts, where they completely surround a smaller enemy force and try to eliminate them before they can escape. The Cresians, of course, use their shock troops (the deltanes) to punch a hole through the weakest part of the perimieter, usually human soldiers, and keep the rest of the jinn tied up with spells while the Cresians exfiltrate.

The Ta'jinn have a slight edge at night, because more of their troops have darkvision (something around half, as opposed to 10% for the Cresians). Most of their attacks are therefore in the dark. The godsbloods on the griffins cannot see troops by night, but their griffins can (60-foot darkvision). In response to this, the Cresians have taken to hiding in thick forest so the griffins can't fly close enough, and responding to that, the Ta'jinn develop a sweep-march formation: a wing advances spread out in a line, with the edges forward of the center, and with advance riders out in front carrying signal torches; the entire formation wraps around smaller obstacles and theoretically eliminates them.

One minor tactic used by the Ta'jinn is for a godsblood on a griffin to cast Light on a sling bullet and drop it to human troops below. Most can do this a couple of times for one nocturnal engagement.



Meanwhile, the Cresians have discovered that their supply raids aren't doing the trick in the northeastern moors, although their military presence in the area has stopped one Ta'jinn attempt to drive a few wings into the heart of Cresia down the south-eastern bank of the Cresian River. It falls on them to do something more drastic to ensure their safety - their towns are falling, although knots of resistance remain in no-man's-land. Already, maybe 5% of their population has been evacuated or 'liberated' by the Ta'jinn.

The priesthood wants to fortify the moors with a new forest and then a really big wall, thus stopping the Ta'jinn from reaching Stempa and thus Cresia. This, of course, is the 'peaceful' solution.

The military, on the other hand, favours a more direct approach. They want to find a way to nullify the Ta'jinn support structure in Stempa itself, by destroying the Tarthusian alliance - whether its cohesion, or each city-state itself, one by one. The favoured sub-option is to try diplomacy (read: massive bribery) first, but a few of the toughest soldiers are already wondering how they can bring down an entire Stempan city... and finding answers.

A couple of real hotheads want to find the Ta'jinn's home and lay waste to it. Unfortunately, nobody really knows where that might be...

The Thelian Stempans, meanwhile, are trying to sting the Tarthusians in the side. The Tarthusians have the Ta'jinn caravan guards on their side, however, so the Thelians are being a little cautious - without their Cresian allies, they're overmatched and they know it. (But that might change...)

Meanwhile, the Auselen are doing something... but what? And who will it benefit?

 

[s/LaSH]

Oh, and Morgenstern: The idea of a spear-growth spell is very suiting. Trouble: It's not quite available in the core rules, thus harder to cast. Fabricate (Sor/Wiz 5) comes close, so I'd advise something like: Spear Growth (Drd 6), creates spears just like Fabricate would. Only a very few casters could manage it, in this paradigm, but they'd definitely be in high demand on the front lines.

How long until this comes up? The need won't arise until a couple of months in, with units operating far in the field, and the need won't be researched for another couple of months, and dissemination not for another couple... I'd say possibly just before the Ta'jinn figure out silver hurts lycanthropes.

Oh, and do the Cresians understand silver vulnerability? I don't see them making much use of silver, frankly, especially not in a semi-aquatic nation where it can tarnish easily. So the fact that the Ta'jinn will soon develop an anti-deltane weapon is another sign that the jinn are just unholy abominations.

 

[Dr. Strangemonkey]

I have to think that there is a way to make spear growth a lower level spell. It basically just makes amunition afterall and magic stones and shillelaugh are super low level themselves.

As far as I know the Cressians have no idea of silver vulnerability in lycanthropes. Earlier in the thread they had to pen lycanthropes up in special cells in order to control them. They did know that they were sort of vulnerable to fire, and the old cave people seemed to be getting a much better understanding of what sorts of crafted goods hurt them.

Speaking of cave people, how long until the remnants/descendants of their culture, who have been studying the Cressians for forever now, contact the Ta'jinn or the Auselen? I think they won't help but try it when a large and viable invasion force shows up in Cressia.

Two things I think the Cressians might develop. First, the spear growth gave me the idea that the Cressians could develop the equivalent of LARPs. They already have very very highly trained and trained to act on their own professional troops who are spend all their time moving through the wilderness, and their use of druids could enable a fairly small group to operate at a very high level of effectiveness without ever contacting a supply base.

Second, I think both sides are going to develop the equivalent of think tanks and intelligence services. First of all, both sides are very surprised by the other. Second they are in tactical stalemate. The drive to learn about the other side and discover some means of breaking the tie is going to consume the time of their higher ranking officers. Groups are going to be formed and supported who do nothing but attempt to find patterns in the enemy and creative means of exploiting them. The Ta'jinn may have already had something like this in their council of command system, but for the Cressians this will represent a new form of labor division in their command staff. Both sides are likely going to provoke conflicts to test theories and undergo risky operations in order to capture valuable bits of information.

That could be the means by which deltanes come into contact with a silver bedecked Ta'jinn commander.

I agree that the Centaurs are likely to only use bucklers, but the infantry of the Ta'jinn is going to be very shield based.

I love the Ta'jinn use of flares that's exactly the sort of low level but creative magic use that the Ta'jinn should be using.

I also think that the Ta'jinn are going to start investing more heavily in their infantry tactics. Particularly in ways of using their infantry to capture and then fortify inportant pieces of rough terrain. They still wouldn't be able to project power through it as the Cressians do, but they would be able to severly inhibit the Cressian's ability to do so. I also think they're likely to use a lot of traps. Most of them probably aren't too effective against people with the Cressians expertise, but the effort could lead to important developments.

I particularly like the idea of undead or small servitors sent to hide in the rough and make lots of noise if they 'see' anything manlike moving around.

Good lord this thread is fun.

 

[Tonguez]

Speaking of cave people, how long until the remnants/descendants of their culture, who have been studying the Cressians for forever now, contact the Ta'jinn or the Auselen? I think they won't help but try it when a large and viable invasion force shows up in Cressia.

Actually, although it was never overtly stated I had assumed that the Cave people had evolved to become the Stempa. The Cave people have not been encountered for thousands of years and it seems strange that such could have happened without the Cressians at least being aware of them. Furthermore I doubt anyone in the current age even remembers that first prehistoric battle covered in our first encounter. Its ancient history and the world is now a very different place

Of course if anyone wants to add the elemant of a lost trogdolyte culture which enters the fray- your welcome to it

Two things I think the Cressians might develop. First, the spear growth gave me the idea that the Cressians could develop the equivalent of LARPs.

What are LARPS?
(I don't think you mean they'll dress in black and pretend to be Vampires)

Second, I think both sides are going to develop the equivalent of think tanks and intelligence services. First of all, both sides are very surprised by the other. Second they are in tactical stalemate. The drive to learn about the other side and discover some means of breaking the tie is going to consume the time of their higher ranking officers. Groups are going to be formed and supported who do nothing but attempt to find patterns in the enemy and creative means of exploiting them.

This provides an excellent reason to develop the Scribe Sept to which the Bards and Arcane Scholars of Cressia already belong. Taking this angle it looks like the Cressiand are going to start specialising in Divinition and Enchantment. we could also see development of an Assassin-type spell list and a Strategist PrC

So how will development of Divinition and Enchantment become useful to the Cressians?

One obvious move is that the Cressian Diplomats will contact the Stempan city-states and seek to get behind the Ta'jinn lines and into their country via that route and with Stempan support (possibly gained through both diplomacy and bit of charm)

 

[dglass]

A few thoughts:

How about the Stempa use the khopesh? I don't know what the stats are but they are heavy. Being able to wield one might be a point of pride in a culture that already puts emphasis on being strong.

Lycanthropy curse can be cured with belladona. I think once the Ta'Jinn healers figure it out the problems with germ-warfare would be lessened. It would still cause problems though.

I was thinking about the Auslen expeditionary force today. The smallest unit is called a circle. A circle consists of five soldiers. Five circles form a cabal. Five cabals from a convocation. A cabal is a combined arms unit with command, infantry, magical artillery, recon and support circles. The Auslen force which landed on the continent consisted of two convocations. The soldiers are of House Mej'krath. There are five houses which run Auslen. Each house is ruled by a dragon which has set itself up as a lesser god. The Houses, dragon, and elemental correspondences are:
Mejkrath - Red - Fire
Gorith - Bronze - Water
Chidith - Blue - Earth
Redath - Silver ((alignment is Chaotic Good)) - Air
Aebepoth - Green ((aligment is True Neutral)) - Wood
Each house has its own lands and handles internal affairs as it sees fit. In matters of foreign policy each dragon votes. The four houses serve to check each others power with Aebepoth being the swing vote. Mej'krath and Chidith want to set up colonies on the continent. Dragon debates can last for decades however and Mej'krath has sent his units north in secret. His plan is to set up a beachead in the choicest lands. He knows the natives will retaliate. This will force the Good dragons hand. If the island is threatened with invasion they will have no choice but to declare war.

 

[Dr. Strangemonkey]

I like the organization of the Auselen force, but it also needs to be adapted for ship born raiders. How many circles are on the standard military ship? What's the most common formation of ships? What are the common specializations of ships? Does the naval organization relate to the land based organization at all?

I think the small unit scales and house organization works really well as a basic idea.

And I think Khopesh's are great for the Stempans. Lots of iron for a culture that's proud of it. And a very nice heavy infantry weapon.

LARP was the acronym for long range American patrols in Vietnam. Very small units that would move deep into enemy lines and be gone for forever. Don't know a whole lot about what they actually did but training people for them lead to a revolution in the way America handled special forces. I didn't even think about the Role-playing acronym.

I had thought that the cave people culture went sort of wild and lived on the edges of Cressian territory. It makes sense for a lot of them to have become the Stempans. But I had also had this thought that a portion of the culture had become a bizarre sort of criminal subculture within the greater Cressian sphere. Sort of like gypsies in that they have their own language and many of them live on the fringes of larger cultures which tolerate them but don't do that much for them.

The smaller culture still has some ties to Stempa, but spends much of its time quietly supporting criminal activity in Cressia and gathering information which they are extremely cautious about using so they do not expose themselves to harm or render it useless by forcing the Cressians to adapt to the fact that it is widely known.

Ehh, it's just an idea.

In terms of the use of divination magic. The range on it is so limited, that I expect both sides are going to end up creating formations of information specialists. Organizations of more or less traditional intelligence agents, but also highly mobile elite military units centered around spellcasters specializing in divination, enchantment, stealth, and travel magics. Their units would specialize getting into and out of strange places safely and quickly, capturing people, cultivating treachery, and assessing battlefield situations accurately. Diviners will end up on scouting missions and in special overwatch points on battlefields.

Among the Ta'jinn this role comes naturally to the god-blooded and those persons belonging to the Khan's Table.

I also thought that the Ta'jinn might start making nets, lassoes, torches, and bolas a standard part of the equipment and start really researching alchemical equipment. Fire having obvious utility against the Cressians.