Fantasy morality...

Re: Please...

The Sigil said:

Again, what this boils down to is moral relativism vs. moral absolutism.

If _that's_ what it was all about, there wouldn't be any alignment wars.

The moral relativists want to remove the label of "good" and "evil" from behaviors... because, from a certain point of view, anything is "good."

You have missed the point of 25 years of alignment wars.

I invite you to post your alignment theories to rgfd. You will find many people willing to debate the subject with you.
 

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Uuuughh.... Moral Relativism!!!!!!!!!

Yeachhh..........Moral Relativism has been brought up! When it boils down to it Moral Relativism is a self-contradictory philosophy. Although many different cultures and religions have different ideas on what is acceptable, no human can really follow moral relativism. Even atheists have a moral code, but see it as coming from some abstract ideal (what is good for humanity, society, etc.) rather than a deity.
Case in point, if you go and mug some guy who claims to follow moral relativism he will undoubtfully be angry about taking his money (even if it was only a small amount that he could do without). However moral relativism says that one can not pass any judgement on moral issues. And being angry expresses judgement to the act, hence no one can follow moral relativism.

Hence moral relativism is not appropriate for D&D (nor any person in general.) I see D&D as being a "heroic game" in which morality is clearly defined. If you want to have more gray areas, and have PCs that are dark heroes (or down right evil, in an evil campaign) that's fine too.
 

Re: Uuuughh.... Moral Relativism!!!!!!!!!

shadow said:
Case in point, if you go and mug some guy who claims to follow moral relativism he will undoubtfully be angry about taking his money (even if it was only a small amount that he could do without). However moral relativism says that one can not pass any judgement on moral issues. And being angry expresses judgement to the act, hence no one can follow moral relativism.

No, it means that he became angry because you mugged him. Anger is an emotion, and it's irrational and illogical. He's not passing judgement; he's getting angry.
 

Re: Re: Re: Please...

The Sigil said:

Even relativists are absolutists... they hold to one belief as absolute...

I disagree: Relativists sometimes hold to one belief as an absolute some of the time.

Oh yeah, even absolutists are relativists sometimes... :)
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The Sigil---
Don't get me started on the paradoxes inherent if this statement is true. ;)


shadow----
When it boils down to it Moral Relativism is a self-contradictory philosophy.


Who said paradoxes and contradictions are invalid in all cases in the Universe? They are only invalid within the set of Logic. You would be hard pressed to prove that Logic maps to the Universe and the Universe maps to Logic.

I also would like to challenge anyone on this planet to find a single philosophy that is not self-contradictory nor based on circular logic.
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It's one reason I happen to be an absolutist. *chuckles*

--The Sigil

I happen to be both a relativist and an absolutist. They are both tools that humans can use to judge the presence of Good. Why limit myself to one inferior tool when I can use both? ;)
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Lost Soul----
Anger is an emotion, and it's irrational and illogical.

Neat! A moral system that does not deal with emotions...

How useful is that? ;)
 
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However emotion stems from ones sense of morals and deep rooted beliefs. Anger is especially linked to one's morals. Anger for example is stems from a sense of injustice. Take the scenario of the mugging, if you didn't get hurt, didn't lose more than a few dollars(no big loss), why should you get angry unless you had some moral sense that one shouldn't steal from you.
If one truly follows moral relativism, one can condone Hitler's holocaust of the Jews, Stalin's purges of millions of people. Since one can not pass any moral judgement, one has to concede that there is nothing inherently "wrong" with such actions.
Taking moral relativism to the extreme, one could argue that there should be no laws, since laws impose one's view of morals upon society. (For example, how can one condemn murder if one believes that one can not impose any type of moral judgement?) Obviously such a society could never exist or survive, hence moral relativism is a failed philosophy.
When it comes down to it, moral relativism is a contradictory philosophy. If all moral views are equally valid, then two contradicting moral views must be equally valid. However, logically two moral views can not both be correct, leading to a prardox. This is one of the big faults of the moral relativism philosophy.
Although different culturals haves different views of right and wrong behavior, no human can truly follow moral relativism. All humans have some deep rooted sense of morals. Even though some people are more open minded, even the most "open minded" and tolerant person has to draw the line somewhere.
(sorry for the philosophical rant)
 

shadow said:
However emotion stems from ones sense of morals and deep rooted beliefs. Anger is especially linked to one's morals.

Emotions can be linked to morals, but they are not necessarily.

As an example - a child can be angry about being disciplined by a parent, when they know full well that they deserve the punishment and there's nothing unjust about how they were treated. A child can also be angry because they feel the punishment was unjust. Sometimes emotions are connected to morals, sometimes they aren't.
 

I'm with Umbran on this one.

A moral system that doesn't deal with emotions? That's useful because it keeps people in line - keeps them from hurting each other over and over again, causing all sorts of suffering and pain. It also creates constraints that mess people up, too. (Such as suppression of anger or sexual desire.)
 

shadow said:
If one truly follows moral relativism, one can condone Hitler's holocaust of the Jews, Stalin's purges of millions of people. Since one can not pass any moral judgement, one has to concede that there is nothing inherently "wrong" with such actions.

"I disagree with what you say, but I will fight to the death for your right to say it." -- Voltaire

Taking moral relativism to the extreme, one could argue that there should be no laws, since laws impose one's view of morals upon society.

http://flag.blackened.net/
 

25 years of trying to figure out what constitutes an alignment infraction...... wow.

hong: Putting a number on it like that realy makes such an obviously, bedrock level of import argument, look rather silly.
 

Vhane said:
25 years of trying to figure out what constitutes an alignment infraction...... wow.

hong: Putting a number on it like that realy makes such an obviously, bedrock level of import argument, look rather silly.

Think of it as character building.

You can't say you've really talked about D&D until you've been in at least one alignment war. ;)
 

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