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Faster/More Efficient Combat?
- Thread starter NightOwl
- Start date
kreynolds
First Post
Re: Re: Re: Faster/More Efficient Combat?
Exactly! Thus, you divide combat time by 15! Well, maybe you don't divide the combat time by 15, but it sure as hell will shorten it!
NightOwl said:
That WOULD make things faster! Of course, since I'm one of the players, maybe we should divide all the monsters HPs by 15!
NightOwl
Exactly! Thus, you divide combat time by 15! Well, maybe you don't divide the combat time by 15, but it sure as hell will shorten it!
ConcreteBuddha
First Post
Hopefully this is on topic. If not, I apologize.
Here are five things we do in gameplay that speed up the game immeasurably:
1) Situation:
Five "sneaky" player characters.
Problem:
Each character rolls Move Silently, Hide, Spot and Listen every round. Plus, they are in Drow controlled territory. Each Drow is also rolling Move Silently, Hide, Spot, Listen.
With five PCs and five Drow (average encounter), that's 20 rolls from the PCs and 20 rolls from the bad guys.
I couldn't rationalize averaging out the Drow rolls. My NPCs are a little more than "mooks".
So that's 40 rolls at the beginning of combat.
Plus, PCs and NPCs are moving in and out of combat all the time, and I like the idea of a character hiding while far away from the fight then surprising a foe.
All of this = big headache.
Okay, this is what we did:
It started with just this: I wanted a Stealth and an Alertness skill.
Stealth = Move Silently + Hide
Alertness = Spot + Listen + (Smell + Taste + Feel) + Search + Scry
This would cut the rolls in half. The problem is obvious, however:
Stealth and Alertness would be better than just about every skill out there.
So we condensed just about every skill into smaller broader categories. Example: We condensed Balance, Jump and Tumble into a skill called Acrobatics.
Here is our List v1.0
New Skill List
This list supercedes the one in the PHB
Primary Skills
Alertness
Alchemy
Arcane Lore
Animal Lore
Acrobatics
Acting
Athletics
Concentration
Craft
Dancing
Divine Lore
Forgery
Heal
Investigation
Knowledge
Linguistics
Locksmithing
Magical Device Lore
Music
Profession
Sleight of Hand
Stealth
Subterfuge
Trapmaking
Wilderness Lore
The only change I would make now is to recondense Acting, Music and Dancing back into Perform. Too late, the new character sheets are already printed up. (But if we get a bard in our party, we may go back.)
2) We always use upkeep (from the DMG) to determine food and water and feed.
2a) We never use encumberance. (Unless the PCs are being really stupid: like carrying 15 sets of plate mail in a bag.)
(Umm...don't know how this helps out in combat....but at least it lets you have more combats!)
It once took us two hours to figure out how much food, water and feed we could carry for 8 PCs, 4 NPCs, 3 Cohorts, 13 horses, 2 riding dogs, and 15 mules over 3 months travel.
3) We also use this concept: PCs can buy an "Adventurer's Kit (tm)."
Players spend a certain amount of gold, however much they want, the DM will then determine on a whim what's in your AK.
During gameplay, the player will say, "Mr. DM do I have a piton in my AK?"
And the DM will reply, "Sorry Jim, but you only spent 10 gp on your AK."
I've been RPing forever, and I'm sick of buying chalk and rope...
4) We only use the Core books plus PSI. The addition of more rules from outside sources is not necessary.
5) We disregard stupid rules, make stuff up on the fly and don't question the DM during gameplay about said referee decisions. After the game is okay. But during is unfair and slows down combat way too much.
In conclusion:
The reason why we do all this is simple: My friends and I like "Heroic Campaign Against the Minions of Evil", not "Realistic Game that Bogs Down with Lots of Rules to Simulate Reality".
Here are five things we do in gameplay that speed up the game immeasurably:
1) Situation:
Five "sneaky" player characters.
Problem:
Each character rolls Move Silently, Hide, Spot and Listen every round. Plus, they are in Drow controlled territory. Each Drow is also rolling Move Silently, Hide, Spot, Listen.
With five PCs and five Drow (average encounter), that's 20 rolls from the PCs and 20 rolls from the bad guys.
I couldn't rationalize averaging out the Drow rolls. My NPCs are a little more than "mooks".
So that's 40 rolls at the beginning of combat.
Plus, PCs and NPCs are moving in and out of combat all the time, and I like the idea of a character hiding while far away from the fight then surprising a foe.
All of this = big headache.
Okay, this is what we did:
It started with just this: I wanted a Stealth and an Alertness skill.
Stealth = Move Silently + Hide
Alertness = Spot + Listen + (Smell + Taste + Feel) + Search + Scry
This would cut the rolls in half. The problem is obvious, however:
Stealth and Alertness would be better than just about every skill out there.
So we condensed just about every skill into smaller broader categories. Example: We condensed Balance, Jump and Tumble into a skill called Acrobatics.
Here is our List v1.0
New Skill List
This list supercedes the one in the PHB
Primary Skills
Alertness
Alchemy
Arcane Lore
Animal Lore
Acrobatics
Acting
Athletics
Concentration
Craft
Dancing
Divine Lore
Forgery
Heal
Investigation
Knowledge
Linguistics
Locksmithing
Magical Device Lore
Music
Profession
Sleight of Hand
Stealth
Subterfuge
Trapmaking
Wilderness Lore
The only change I would make now is to recondense Acting, Music and Dancing back into Perform. Too late, the new character sheets are already printed up. (But if we get a bard in our party, we may go back.)
2) We always use upkeep (from the DMG) to determine food and water and feed.
2a) We never use encumberance. (Unless the PCs are being really stupid: like carrying 15 sets of plate mail in a bag.)
(Umm...don't know how this helps out in combat....but at least it lets you have more combats!)
It once took us two hours to figure out how much food, water and feed we could carry for 8 PCs, 4 NPCs, 3 Cohorts, 13 horses, 2 riding dogs, and 15 mules over 3 months travel.
3) We also use this concept: PCs can buy an "Adventurer's Kit (tm)."
Players spend a certain amount of gold, however much they want, the DM will then determine on a whim what's in your AK.
During gameplay, the player will say, "Mr. DM do I have a piton in my AK?"
And the DM will reply, "Sorry Jim, but you only spent 10 gp on your AK."
I've been RPing forever, and I'm sick of buying chalk and rope...
4) We only use the Core books plus PSI. The addition of more rules from outside sources is not necessary.
5) We disregard stupid rules, make stuff up on the fly and don't question the DM during gameplay about said referee decisions. After the game is okay. But during is unfair and slows down combat way too much.
In conclusion:
The reason why we do all this is simple: My friends and I like "Heroic Campaign Against the Minions of Evil", not "Realistic Game that Bogs Down with Lots of Rules to Simulate Reality".
Less combat?
Seriously I've never had problem with it myself, in fact most of us are itching for a fight anyway so how long it lasts rarely matters (as a DM and a player).
How many people are in your group?
If its not more than say 5, then look for whats making your combats go slowly. For us its always been someone who just sits there until its thier turn and then has no idea what they want to do. If the players are into the fight they usually can think up plans at least a round or two ahead of time and be ready right away when thier turn comes up. 9 times in 10 said player was reading a book rather than paying attention to the fight. If everyone thinks its a problem set some ground rules- no looking through books unless its related to the fight (checking spells/items/abilities relevant to combat that the player actually has).
It also depends on what kinds of combats you're running. Huge fights with lots of different creatures and/or multiple spell casters tend to take longer- but then again they tend to be the "big" fights of a session.
We normally game for about 6 hours or so and tend to get about 2-3 fights in, total time spent fighting is probably about 2-2.5 hours, depending on the session. An hour- hour and a half wasted talking about nothing and the rest spent roleplaying or looking up obscure rules.
Seriously I've never had problem with it myself, in fact most of us are itching for a fight anyway so how long it lasts rarely matters (as a DM and a player).
How many people are in your group?
If its not more than say 5, then look for whats making your combats go slowly. For us its always been someone who just sits there until its thier turn and then has no idea what they want to do. If the players are into the fight they usually can think up plans at least a round or two ahead of time and be ready right away when thier turn comes up. 9 times in 10 said player was reading a book rather than paying attention to the fight. If everyone thinks its a problem set some ground rules- no looking through books unless its related to the fight (checking spells/items/abilities relevant to combat that the player actually has).
It also depends on what kinds of combats you're running. Huge fights with lots of different creatures and/or multiple spell casters tend to take longer- but then again they tend to be the "big" fights of a session.
We normally game for about 6 hours or so and tend to get about 2-3 fights in, total time spent fighting is probably about 2-2.5 hours, depending on the session. An hour- hour and a half wasted talking about nothing and the rest spent roleplaying or looking up obscure rules.
One thing I have found to be tremendously useful for speeding up combat are combat sheets. These take a lot of prep time but make the actual combat run very smoothly. There are many different versions out there including the ones available in the DM screen pack.
What I do is make them on excel ahead of time customized to each combat.
First is an iniative order
So one column has a list of all possible iniatives usually -2 through 31. Each block in the column has three rows to it - in the event that there are multiple characters with the same iniative.
Then each subsequent column (from L -> R) is a round. Abbreviations such as AS:MM - for Arcane spell: Magic missle are used in each box.
AS=arcane spell
DS=divine spell
MEA=movee equivalent action
SA=standard action
att=attack
FA=full attack
etc.
A printed out spread sheet with this makes combat go more smoothly because all combatants will already be ordered in order, the duration of spells can be easily measured (if necessary), and a clear view of everything that is going on is right in front of you.
Depending on the number of combatants, the number of rows may have to be increased, per iniative count. THis is very simple though to do in excel.
The second thing that I don't do personally, but my friends do when they DM, is make statblocks on notecards for each NPC. Rather than having to pull out the MM or the actual character sheet of every NPC, have a stat block with all of the relevant info for battle tailored against the PCs. Such cards include BAB, HP, Init, BS, AC ST, Ability scores, weight carried, extra weapons, spells available, SA, and combat relevant feats. So for a rogue you would have a bunch of his skills like bluff, hide, MS, UMD, SM, his SA dmg, his BAB, HP, AC, Init, Speed, relevant magic items that are not already accounted for in any of the above information, and feats if relevant.
I don't do this because I typically not only plan out encounters but already have strategies that the opposing side will use against the PCs based on the common tactics of the PCs. Therefore, most of the info is in my head. Sometimes this can defintely slow things down though. And I would not recommend doing this unless you are very familiar with the enemies abilities.
Lastly have your players make all rolls at the same time. For example, if a fighter is attacking with his greatsword using a PA, have him roll the attack roll, dmg, percent miss chance if concealment, etc. all at once. This saves a lot of time. Also, I don't know about other gamers, but I always find that my darn dice always want to roll off of the surface I am rolling on. Getting something like a shoebox cover, or a board game box to roll in saves a substantial amount of time when you add up the amount of time saved by not having to find and pick up that lone black d8 under the dark table for your mace dmg.
I personally would be against doing anything that actually alters the rules to speed up combat. Hey, do what works, but for me, I find that the above 3 things tend to make combats go a bit faster.
What I do is make them on excel ahead of time customized to each combat.
First is an iniative order
So one column has a list of all possible iniatives usually -2 through 31. Each block in the column has three rows to it - in the event that there are multiple characters with the same iniative.
Then each subsequent column (from L -> R) is a round. Abbreviations such as AS:MM - for Arcane spell: Magic missle are used in each box.
AS=arcane spell
DS=divine spell
MEA=movee equivalent action
SA=standard action
att=attack
FA=full attack
etc.
A printed out spread sheet with this makes combat go more smoothly because all combatants will already be ordered in order, the duration of spells can be easily measured (if necessary), and a clear view of everything that is going on is right in front of you.
Depending on the number of combatants, the number of rows may have to be increased, per iniative count. THis is very simple though to do in excel.
The second thing that I don't do personally, but my friends do when they DM, is make statblocks on notecards for each NPC. Rather than having to pull out the MM or the actual character sheet of every NPC, have a stat block with all of the relevant info for battle tailored against the PCs. Such cards include BAB, HP, Init, BS, AC ST, Ability scores, weight carried, extra weapons, spells available, SA, and combat relevant feats. So for a rogue you would have a bunch of his skills like bluff, hide, MS, UMD, SM, his SA dmg, his BAB, HP, AC, Init, Speed, relevant magic items that are not already accounted for in any of the above information, and feats if relevant.
I don't do this because I typically not only plan out encounters but already have strategies that the opposing side will use against the PCs based on the common tactics of the PCs. Therefore, most of the info is in my head. Sometimes this can defintely slow things down though. And I would not recommend doing this unless you are very familiar with the enemies abilities.
Lastly have your players make all rolls at the same time. For example, if a fighter is attacking with his greatsword using a PA, have him roll the attack roll, dmg, percent miss chance if concealment, etc. all at once. This saves a lot of time. Also, I don't know about other gamers, but I always find that my darn dice always want to roll off of the surface I am rolling on. Getting something like a shoebox cover, or a board game box to roll in saves a substantial amount of time when you add up the amount of time saved by not having to find and pick up that lone black d8 under the dark table for your mace dmg.
I personally would be against doing anything that actually alters the rules to speed up combat. Hey, do what works, but for me, I find that the above 3 things tend to make combats go a bit faster.
kylekornkven
First Post
Alternative to Combat Sheets
I first came upon the combat sheet idea in the DMG where they had the combat matrix. I decided that that was too slow, so I made a combat planner. It was fairly popular about a year ago, but the big problem with it was that it was only available online. Basically, what it did was automatically sort initative for all of the monsters and the players, show the hp, ac, saves, name, to hit bonus and damage bonus on one line for each creature. It allowed for reordering initative at any point, allowed the next person in the combat round to be highlighted, and kept track of hit points for monsters, taking them out of the round when they dropped below 0 points. Included in the app was all of the monsters from the monster manual, so a dm could select which characters were playing, then decide they are going to fight orcs, so he would select orcs from the monster list. Say in this case he would want 10 orcs. the program would roll hit points and initative for all of the orcs. This was extremely helpful if you had many many creatures in the combat.
It all sounds confusing explained like this, but it really wasn't. Hopefully soon you all will be able to experience this program, as a friend and I are writing an offline version of it. When that is done, I guarantee it will speed up combat, especially large scale combat!
Kyle
I first came upon the combat sheet idea in the DMG where they had the combat matrix. I decided that that was too slow, so I made a combat planner. It was fairly popular about a year ago, but the big problem with it was that it was only available online. Basically, what it did was automatically sort initative for all of the monsters and the players, show the hp, ac, saves, name, to hit bonus and damage bonus on one line for each creature. It allowed for reordering initative at any point, allowed the next person in the combat round to be highlighted, and kept track of hit points for monsters, taking them out of the round when they dropped below 0 points. Included in the app was all of the monsters from the monster manual, so a dm could select which characters were playing, then decide they are going to fight orcs, so he would select orcs from the monster list. Say in this case he would want 10 orcs. the program would roll hit points and initative for all of the orcs. This was extremely helpful if you had many many creatures in the combat.
It all sounds confusing explained like this, but it really wasn't. Hopefully soon you all will be able to experience this program, as a friend and I are writing an offline version of it. When that is done, I guarantee it will speed up combat, especially large scale combat!
Kyle
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