Feat Help for Scout/Ranger/Shadowdancer?

[rowport]

Hey, folks! Well, after the tons of nifty new classes and feats available in WOTC books from the past year, I am finally building the character concept that I most enjoy. I am planning out a Scout/Ranger/Shadowdancer, and would like some input on feats. I am not trying to twink, exactly, although I do hope that the character will be competant in combat. Any suggestions are welcome. Here is what I have so far:

Scout 4/Human Paragon 3/Ranger 11/Shadowdancer 2

The scout levels get me a bit o' Skirmish damage, a bonus feat, +10' of fast movement, and lovely skill points. The Human Paragon levels get me the Adaptive Learning ability, which I will use to make Disable Device a class skill to make the most of the Scout's trapfinding ability; it is not much of a sacrifice to make, since the abilities are fairly decent and on balance seems worth giving up more Shadowdancer levels, especially with the two spellcasting level increases. Ranger 11 is great, since it covers all three of the Combat Style abilities (more on that below). I do give up some of the higher level Ranger abilities, but it seems worth it for the Shadowdancer HIPS and Evasion early in play. I do feel a little guilty about poaching on the Shadowdancer frontloaded levels, but that is how it is working out...

Anyway, I plan to try something a little different for the Ranger Combat Style. In FFG's "Wildscape" there is a Ranger Knight progression alternative style, which gives AC bonuses for sword & board Rangers. (BTW, go buy that book. Seriously. It is Mike Mearls for $5 in hardback, no less.) Anyway, I can give more details if it matters, but essentially assume that his AC gets better dodge bonuses using a shield.

For skills, I see him as a true scout (not "Scout", heh) character, with high dexterity and lots of skills. There is great synergy between Scout and Ranger for shared class skills, so I think Climb, Hide, Jump, Know (Nature), Listen, Move Silentyl, Search (for Trapfinding), Spot, and Survival will be maxed, with Disable Device (see above from Human Paragon) and some Tumble as well; other than the required 5 ranks, I doubt I will focus much on Perform (Dance) since it will be expensive as cross-class ranks.

I have not figured out stats yet, but expect with 28 point buy, I will have great DEX and decent STR, CON, INT and WIS (for skills and Ranger spells). CHA will have to stink, so no point in Handle Animal.

OK, so with that backdrop, I expect him to be a dexterity-focused, sneaky, mobile fighter. I plan to use the Dodge/Mobility/Spring Attack tree to jump in and out of melee for Skirmish damage (also as entry requirements into Shadowdancer). So, some of his feats are 'free' feats, and some are already spoken for. Those are:
Endurance (free)
Track (free)
Combat Reflexes (required)
Dodge (required)
Mobility (required)

Between bonus feats and regular feats (not counting free feats), he has 10 available. With the three above, that leaves 7 to choose. Here are the ones I am considering (grouped along with pre-reqs or by 'type'):
Spring Attack
Elusive Target
Sidestep
Cumbrous Dodge
Crowd Tactics
Hold the Line
Deft Opportunist
Expert Tactician
Combat Expertise
Improved Disarm
Improved Trip
Improved Combat Expertise
Karmic Strike
Improved Favored Enemy
Improved Initative
Danger Sense
Dash
Quick Draw
Weapon Finesse
Cloak Dance
Tactile Trapsmith
Agile Athlete
Shadow Heritage
Stealthy
Jack of all Trades
Scorpion's Instincts
Expeditious Dodge
Darkstalker
Dive for Cover

I know this is a ton of feats; I mostly wanted to check out all my WOTC options. I welcome any feedback! Let me know if more details would help on the character idea, too.

 

[Gez]

You can take Expeditious Dodge instead of Dodge (it specifically says it can replace Dodge for purpose of qualifying for Mobility and classes like Shadowdancer), and it would synergize better with Skirmish.

What's Cumbrous Dodge?

I tend to take Skill Focus: Tumble and Acrobatics for Scout characters, since with a DC 40 Tumble check, they can move 10 ft. and perform a full attack. If you go that way, you could take a single level of Bladedancer (OA) instead of, say, a human paragon level. +10 competence bonus to Tumble, Jump, and Balance. With SF and Acro, you get a +15 bonus, which combined with a good Dex and a dozen or ranks, let you succeed at DC 40 checks fairly often.

 

[Daermon]

...with a DC 40 Tumble check, they can move 10 ft. and perform a full attack.

Where is this juicy little rule located?

 

[rowport]

You can take Expeditious Dodge instead of Dodge (it specifically says it can replace Dodge for purpose of qualifying for Mobility and classes like Shadowdancer), and it would synergize better with Skirmish.

What's Cumbrous Dodge?

I tend to take Skill Focus: Tumble and Acrobatics for Scout characters, since with a DC 40 Tumble check, they can move 10 ft. and perform a full attack. If you go that way, you could take a single level of Bladedancer (OA) instead of, say, a human paragon level. +10 competence bonus to Tumble, Jump, and Balance. With SF and Acro, you get a +15 bonus, which combined with a good Dex and a dozen or ranks, let you succeed at DC 40 checks fairly often.

Gez-

These are good ideas, thanks! I had not noticed that Expeditious Dodge could be used to qualify for Mobility, that is a really cool feature. Unfortunately, since I will only get 40' movement after Scout 3, I would have at least a couple of levels with a dead feat... hmm... I will have to think about that. If I dumped the Human Paragon levels I could get the Scout levels earlier, sacrificing Disable Device. Then I could even take a couple levels of Barbarian instead, which would get me Fast Movement right away to use with Expeditious Dodge. In fact, that sounds pretty darn attractive, because with Barbarian 2 and Scout 2 within a few levels of each other, I get Improved Uncanny Dodge nearly immediately. Nifty.

I will check out Bladedancer; it does not ring a bell with me.

I like the Skill Focus (Tumble) idea except that Tumble is not a class skill for Ranger, and since I plan to focus on Ranger levels I am not sure I can get enough ranks to be really effective with your suggestion. Still, that is worth serious consideration- I think I will have enough Scout levels to put a bunch of points into 'catching up' Tumble at least for the low levels, and with a +10 bonus from Bladedancer (!!) that might be enough to make it work. (I think the DC40 full attack bit is from Complete Adventurer, right?)

Cumbrous Dodge is from Savage Species, which requires Dodge and Tumble (4 ranks), where you declare a +2 dodge bonus as a free action which lasts until the end of the encounter, then you are fatigued.

Any other ideas? What is the general feeling about prereq feats; should I focus on ones related to the (Expeditious) Dodge/Mobility/Spring Attack tree and Combat Reflexes, or is it worth pursuing the Combat Expertise tree instead? Does it matter if I mix and match, or does that weaken the character?

 

[Gez]

Where is this juicy little rule located?

Oriental Adventures, page 58. And the Bladedancer is from the same book, page 38. Alternatively, with a big bunch of feats (Improved Unarmed Strike, Power Attack, Roundabout Kick, Flying Kick, Fists of Iron, Deflect Arrows), and 5 ranks in both Jump and Tumble, you get the same benefit (+10 competence bonus on Balance, Jump, and Tumble checks) thanks to the Foot & Fist Mastery martial art style. But the cost is, IMHO, too steep for non-monks.

Oh yeah, if you decide to adopt the Tumbling Skirmish way, be sure to put at least 5 ranks in Jump, for the synergy bonus.

Note that if you get more levels in Bladedancer, you eventually get a +30! competence bonus on Balance, Jump, and Tumble checks! As well as tripling your base speed... (And you start by doubling it at first level...)

The prereqs for bladedancer are Jump 12, Tumble 12, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, proficiency with any sword, BAB +7, spellcasting ability, and non-chaotic alignment -- the book says any lawful, but it has been errated to any non-chaotic.

So a multiclass scout/ranger/barbarian can fit the prereq, if you have barbarian levels, you just have to be neutral, neither chaotic nor lawful. You need at least 4 levels of ranger to qualify for the spellcasting requirement.

For having Tumble 12, just sprinkle your Scout levels correctly, for example at 1st and 9th character levels, you can pull that out: max out at first level (four ranks), then at 9th level, put all your base scout skill ranks (8 of them) into Tumble.

Also, since your character will be a human, you might want to take Able Learner as your first-level bonus feat. That way, cross-class skill ranks costs you only one skill points. Combined with the fact your max rank limit depends on your total character level rather than on just the classes in which the skill is a class skill, this feat let you consider all your class skills as being class skills for all your classes. It's a boon for multiclassed characters.

While we're out twinking that character madly, the Shadowdancer class lets you qualify for the Darkrunner prestige class from Lords of Madness, since it gives you darkvision... Though that won't synergize that well with your other abilities, unless the campaign is dungeoncrawl-intensive.

Anyway, you might want to invest in Whirlwind Attack. The prospect of tumbling through an opponent's square so as to arrive in the middle of their formation and then hacking them all with extra skirmish damage is enticing.

Of course, the lower your scout level is, the least interesting optimizing Tumble is.

 

[rowport]

So, I checked out Bladedancer... uh... is that class generally considered overpowered??

Honestly, it might not be, because while it is unbelievably effective at "acrobatic" tricks, it does not have a lot of abilities in general. It also has *really* high entry requirements. I would seriously consider this- it does seem to fit my character conception pretty well. (The Lawful prereq would prevent my idea to add Barbarian levels for Fast Movement, though.)

 

[rowport]

Hey, Gez! Sorry, I was posting my other message and missed your earlier reply!

"...if you have barbarian levels, you just have to be neutral, neither chaotic nor lawful."
I thought that Barbarian required a chaotic alignment? I might have that wrong?

"For having Tumble 12, just sprinkle your Scout levels correctly, for example at 1st and 9th character levels, you can pull that out: max out at first level (four ranks), then at 9th level, put all your base scout skill ranks (8 of them) into Tumble. "
Right, exactly, especially with the Scout's high skill points that could certainly work. Now I am thinking I might just take more Scout levels instead of the Human Paragon or Barbarian levels; that would give me more Skirmish damage anyway.

"Also, since your character will be a human, you might want to take Able Learner as your first-level bonus feat. That way, cross-class skill ranks costs you only one skill points. Combined with the fact your max rank limit depends on your total character level rather than on just the classes in which the skill is a class skill, this feat let you consider all your class skills as being class skills for all your classes. It's a boon for multiclassed characters."
Right! This is one that I planned on originally, until I realized how many skill synergies are between Ranger and Scout. But, for this character idea to really work, I should max out Tumble, so it might be worth taking. I just wish Scout had Disable Device.

"While we're out twinking that character madly, the Shadowdancer class lets you qualify for the Darkrunner prestige class from Lords of Madness, since it gives you darkvision... Though that won't synergize that well with your other abilities, unless the campaign is dungeoncrawl-intensive. "
LOL Well, I am not sure that my GM would allow multiple prestige classes- that might be just a touch too much twink. I think if I go the Blade Dancer route (which looks pretty good to me) then I might have to give up the Shadowdancer bit. But, the Hide in Plain Sight is less important without Sneak Attack anyway, just a nice addition.

"Anyway, you might want to invest in Whirlwind Attack. The prospect of tumbling through an opponent's square so as to arrive in the middle of their formation and then hacking them all with extra skirmish damage is enticing."
This is a *great* idea. I have no idea how I missed that one.

I really like the Blade Dancer idea. I am now thinking something like:
Scout 5/Ranger 11/Shadowdancer 2 (maybe)/Blade Dancer 2 (or maybe 4)

So, overall for feats, it looks like you would recommend acrobatic skill-boosting feats and ones that continue the Mobility tree. Is that right?

 

[Gez]

"...if you have barbarian levels, you just have to be neutral, neither chaotic nor lawful."
I thought that Barbarian required a chaotic alignment? I might have that wrong?

It's a common error, since the WotC staff made the same in Lords of Darkness (see "Becoming an Abolisher").

But barbarians can be NG, TN, or NE. They could in 3.0, they still can in 3.5, I checked the 3.0 PHB, the 3.0 SRD, the 3.5 PHB, the 3.5 PHB in French, and the 3.5 SRD (and even the 3.5 SRD in French, the only language in which the SRD was translated, AFAIK). All agree with me.

Right! This is one that I planned on originally, until I realized how many skill synergies are between Ranger and Scout. But, for this character idea to really work, I should max out Tumble, so it might be worth taking. I just wish Scout had Disable Device.

Well, at least, Able Learner will avoid you to sink too many skill points in DD. Sure, you won't have a very high skill, but at least, it'll be worth what you paid for.

So, overall for feats, it looks like you would recommend acrobatic skill-boosting feats and ones that continue the Mobility tree. Is that right?

Yes. Mobility is the essence of such a character, so it's a natural fit. And for Skirmish to be used to its full potential, Tumble has to be as high as possible as soon as possible.

Otherwise, if you still have feats to spare... IIRC, Wildscape (I took advantage of both of FFG's sales, I've now most of their hardbacks ) has a couple feats that lets you benefit more from a Light Armor, since your AC will be overall low (need to avoid armor check penalty), it can be interesting.

 

[rowport]

Holy cow, Gez, I just noticed that you are in France. If you are primarily a French speaker, your English is phenomenal. I wish my French were as good!

Anyway... thanks for all your help today (or, tonight, by your time- heh). I think I have the final progression plan done- I will post it later.

I also checked, and you are totally right, Barbarians do not have to be chaotic. I was wrong on that, but convinced that I was right- it must be a common house rule, maybe.

Wildscape is a fantastic book (that I also bought in the $5 sale!) that gave me the idea to make a Ranger-type character, using its alternate Combat Styles; I am going to use the "Ranger Knight" sword & shield style.

More later!

 

[Gez]

Holy cow, Gez, I just noticed that you are in France. If you are primarily a French speaker, your English is phenomenal. I wish my French were as good!

My best teachers were Ultima Underworld 2 (which did got me some troubles with my actual English teachers, like when using words like "wondrous," "thee" or "dunno" ) and the Internet.