Feat Prerequisites and Buff Spells

[Evil DM]

I just wanna add my two copper pieces because ironically I thought about the same topic today.

I just read the description for prerequisite and there is written according to SRD:

A minimum ability score...

By just following this eplanation I look at my record sheet and know if I can pick up this feat or not.

But wait. What is my ability score by RAW? Let's say I want to take Power Attack, have a STR Score of 12 and Gauntlets of Ogre Power.
Now what do I have?
Do I have a strength score of 14? Or a strength score of 12 with a +2 enhancement bonus?


First of all I must admit that I tend to the first explanation. So the player would not be allowed to take the Power Attack - Feat with his gauntlets.


But on the other hand let me look at the very important Two-Weapon Fighting Feat. You must have a DEX score of 15.
Assume you use the standart 25 point buy system and do not want to play an elf.
Thus you have to spend 8 points for a single ability. That hurts but is possible. As you do not need much other abilities if you play a straight forward fighter.

But then you wanna take Improved Two Weapon Fighting when you reach 6th level. This needs a DEX score of 17. Uff.
Okay, you can increase your DEX Score at 4th level by one which makes it to 16 but that is not enough.

So back at first level you are forced to plan ahead. You have to make it DEX 16 to possibly achieve a score of 17 at 6th level.
But that costs you 10 *** points.

With this calculation you are able to take Greater Two Weapon Fighting at 12th level where your dex score is increased again by 2 (8th level and 12th level).


So I'd say there are two possibilities:
First it is allowed that magic items count for the ability score increase to meet the prerequisites.
Second. If I look at the TWF example it will add a new flavor to your campaign if elves are reknown for their two weapon fighting ability compared to the other races which will have significiant lacks in other ability scores.


Cheers, Evil DM.

 

[darthkilmor]

IDHTBRIFOM, but I believe that leveling is actually an instantaneous event if you follow the rules for it in the DMG. It happens as soon as you receive the necessary experience, which happens as soon as you complete an encounter. This makes it possible to meet the prerequisite during the moment of leveling up. Even if leveling is not instantaneous, the possibility of a persistant spell or multiple castings make it possible to have a spell buff last the entire leveling period. Furthermore, the rules make no distinction between the +4 you get from a magic item and the +4 you get from a boost spell.

You get experience whenever the DM gives it out, which may not be right when the encounter is over, and level in whatever manner your DM defines. Around pg 197 fo the DMG it suggests several ways to formalize leveling up, like training with someone, studying new spells in a library, etc.
At the end of which it says:

GENERAL DOWNTIME
If you dislike the idea of all this formalized training getting in the
way of the heroic, epic campaign you have going, simply require
that whenever a character gains a new level she must spend one day
per level (or just 1d4 days) in downtime. During this period the
character is busy training, focusing, or simply resting and cannot
cast spells, go on adventures, and so on.

Allowing a PC to gain a feat that he only can use when buffed though something other than an item(which is generally assumed to always be wearing), is just opening up a level of minutia that most DM's and player's probably don't want to deal with. But if your DM says you level instantly, and lets wizards instantly gain 2 spells in their spellbook, and says you can pick up feats you rarely meet the prerequisite for, then have a go

 

[Herzog]

The can of worms, as mentioned above, is opened once someone picks up a feat with as prerequisite the feat that had the (boosted) stat as prerequisite.

Then, you can't use either feat without being boosted.

Now, taking a PrC that depends on a feat that depends on a feat that depends on a boosted stat..........

Herzog

 

[Hypersmurf]

The can of worms, as mentioned above, is opened once someone picks up a feat with as prerequisite the feat that had the (boosted) stat as prerequisite.

Then, you can't use either feat without being boosted.

Now, taking a PrC that depends on a feat that depends on a feat that depends on a boosted stat..........

It's not a can of worms, really - it's the same issue you have if the character who meets the feat prerequisite by himself takes Strength damage, say.

-Hyp.

 

[Shin Okada]

I may allow it. But my players will not actually do that as they know how I love dispelling not only spells but also magic items. Re-buffing is a basic move in med to higher level combats. And It is rather a good idea to use targeted dispel magic when you saw a med to higher level fighters wearing belts or bracers.

My PCs use dispelling spells and abilities whenever they fight against someone likely to buff them up. If so, why not villains do the same? There are creatures who can use those abilities at will.

 

[Jhaelen]

What about items that you take off while you sleep? What makes you feel like they would be OK, but a 12 hour buff would not?

Well, I have a houserule that all worn items need to be worn for at least 24 hours consecutively before their effect sets in. So IMC if you take the item off while you sleep, you're out of luck: The item's effects will never become available.

IIRC, stat-boosting items also have to be worn for 24 hours according to the RAW before the stat bonus applies, but I might be wrong ^^

If a 12 hour buff (or maybe an 8 hour buff?) is sufficient is really for the DM to decide. I don't think there's a rule for that.

 

[jaelis]

Well, I have a houserule that all worn items need to be worn for at least 24 hours consecutively before their effect sets in. So IMC if you take the item off while you sleep, you're out of luck: The item's effects will never become available.

Your characters have to sleep in their armor? And with their boots, crowns, spectacles, robes, etc? That's a bit weird. Endurance must be a critical feat.

 

[rvalle]

Besides Stat boosting items and buffs there is Divine Power which is one of the spells that spurred this question.

When casting it the Cleric gets his BAB raised to = his Cleric level. He would now qualify for feats who's prereq is BAB = X.

Its not a bonus to hit, his actual BAB goes up. But, its only a round per level.

rv

 

[Kat']

When casting it the Cleric gets his BAB raised to = his Cleric level. He would now qualify for feats who's prereq is BAB = X.

Its not a bonus to hit, his actual BAB goes up. But, its only a round per level.

Yeah, that's the point. He won't be able to use the feat unless he's under the effect of the spell. That means the feat becomes very situational, does not work in an AMF, is subject to Dispel Magic etc etc. I believe these drawbacks are hard enough.

 

[moritheil]

It's not a can of worms, really - it's the same issue you have if the character who meets the feat prerequisite by himself takes Strength damage, say.

-Hyp.

Yeah, it's no more a can of worms than the C. War "cascade failure" of failure to qualify for PrCs invalidating those PrCs, which then invalidate other feats and PrCs . . .