Feat prerequisites - Why?

[Quasqueton]

Some of these have bugged me for a long time, so I thought I ask for explanations.


Why do the Sudden Metamagic feats not have the normal Metamagic feat as a prerequisite? "I can't prepare a silent spell, but I can cast a silent spell just off the top of my head, without even increasing the slot level."

Why does Extra Smiting have a +4 BAB prerequisite? Can't get it when the paladin's smite ability is weakest and just once per day, but can get it later when he already has 2 smites and they are more powerful.

Why does Improved Grapple have a Dex 13 prerequisite? Dex doesn't even have anything to do with the grapple mechanic.

Why does Improved Bullrush and Improved Overrun have a Power Attack feat prerequisite? What does doing more damage with your weapon have to do with pushing opponents with your *body*?

Why does Improved Trip have Int 13 and Combat Expertise as prerequisites?

Why does Shot on the Run have Dodge and Mobility as prerequisites? What does defensive feats have to do with an offensive feat?

Why is Eschew Materials not a metamagic feat? It illiminates a casting component, just like Silent and Still Spell, which not only are metamagic feats, but increase the spell level slot for the spell.

Why does Far Shot have Point Blank Shot as a prerequisite? Isn't this an oxymoron?


There's more, but maybe answers to the above will also shed light on others unasked.

Thanks.

Quasqueton

 

[glass]

Why do the Sudden Metamagic feats not have the normal Metamagic feat as a prerequisite? "I can't prepare a silent spell, but I can cast a silent spell just off the top of my head, without even increasing the slot level."

Dunno. I've always wondered the same. Also, why does sudden quicken have so many prereqs?

Why does Extra Smiting have a +4 BAB prerequisite? Can't get it when the paladin's smite ability is weakest and just once per day, but can get it later when he already has 2 smites and they are more powerful.

Dunno. Hadn't noticed that one.

Why does Improved Grapple have a Dex 13 prerequisite? Dex doesn't even have anything to do with the grapple mechanic.

Perhaps because Dex has nothing to do with the drapple mechanic. It seems reasonable that the best grapplers would be somewhat dextrous as well as strong, a the choice of prereq reflects that.

Why does Improved Bullrush and Improved Overrun have a Power Attack feat prerequisite? What does doing more damage with your weapon have to do with pushing opponents with your *body*?

Power Attack seems to be a prereq for all 'big strong brute' type feats. Not sure why.

Why does Shot on the Run have Dodge and Mobility as prerequisites? What does defensive feats have to do with an offensive feat?

SotR is definitely about mobility with a small 'm'.

Why is Eschew Materials not a metamagic feat? It illiminates a casting component, just like Silent and Still Spell, which not only are metamagic feats, but increase the spell level slot for the spell.

IIRC, it was in 3.0. Maybe they thought it was too weak at that.

Why does Far Shot have Point Blank Shot as a prerequisite? Isn't this an oxymoron?

They are both about being skilled with a ranged weapon.


glass.

 

[Thanee]

Why do the Sudden Metamagic feats not have the normal Metamagic feat as a prerequisite?

Because they are alternate versions.

The real question here is, what possessed the writer of the Sudden Quicken feat when writing that abomination of a prerequisite line for the feat.

Why does Improved Grapple have a Dex 13 prerequisite? Dex doesn't even have anything to do with the grapple mechanic.

No idea, really. Maybe because advanced grappling requires a certain agility to apply the techniques?

Why does Improved Trip have Int 13 and Combat Expertise as prerequisites?

Because it's probably meant to be a technical maneuver (like in Aikido), not brute force.

Why does Shot on the Run have Dodge and Mobility as prerequisites? What does defensive feats have to do with an offensive feat?

Shot on the Run is not an offensive feat, much like Mobile Spellcaster is not an offensive feat. Anyways, it certainly has the prerequisites, because Spring Attack has them, too. Not very reasonable, tho. It's also not nearly as useful as Spring Attack.

Why is Eschew Materials not a metamagic feat? It illiminates a casting component, just like Silent and Still Spell, which not only are metamagic feats, but increase the spell level slot for the spell.

Because there are sorcerers. It does not change the spell (like Still and Silent do), but rather changes the way you cast spells in general.

Why does Far Shot have Point Blank Shot as a prerequisite? Isn't this an oxymoron?

Heh.

In many cases, the prerequisites are there for balance reasons... for example, having to invest in an abiliy score, which is not directly related to the task (i.e. the above Dex or Int requirements).

Bye
Thanee

 

[Li Shenron]

Why do the Sudden Metamagic feats not have the normal Metamagic feat as a prerequisite?

Sudden Metamagic feats prerequisites are completely off. IMHO this is simply bad design. They don't make sense in-character (so to speak) but neither from a "balance" POV.

Why does Extra Smiting have a +4 BAB prerequisite?

All those "extra" feats of abilities which gradually give you more uses/day (such as Extra Rage, Extra Spell, Extra Music) suffer from the fact that they are more useful early than later, and the designers had to make a choice about how many extra times per day they give. Extra Smiting in 3.0 gave +1/day but IIRC didn't have other prerequisites.

Why does Improved Grapple have a Dex 13 prerequisite? Dex doesn't even have anything to do with the grapple mechanic.

I think the idea here was that if you have high Str you are a good grappler, but if you ALSO have high Dex you can be a great grappler. They probably thought of a synergy here, such as with the combat feats that require Int.

Why does Improved Bullrush and Improved Overrun have a Power Attack feat prerequisite?

Why does Improved Trip have Int 13 and Combat Expertise as prerequisites?

Why does Shot on the Run have Dodge and Mobility as prerequisites? What does defensive feats have to do with an offensive feat?

These only have to do with the design idea that better feats should be at the end of a feat tree. It's ok for me to restrict some feats at higher level only, but it bugs me to see so many fighters with the same base feats like PA because they are "root" for every other feat.

Why is Eschew Materials not a metamagic feat?

It used to be, but it was changed because as a MM feat it requires all Sorcerer/Bards to spend a full round casting, while the flavor of the feat fits more those spontaneous casters. It is also a weak feat even without that extra cost.

Why does Far Shot have Point Blank Shot as a prerequisite?

Same as PA and Dodge... PBS is a very good feat but it's a pity again that every archer must absolutely take it to take nearly any other feat (and IMHO, while PBS is _great_, it is not _necessary_ at all, especially when compared with Precise Shot which should have been the root feat of the archery tree).

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

Why does Improved Trip have Int 13 and Combat Expertise as prerequisites?

I'm guessing because they are assuming that tripping in more of an advanced technique, you have to lure the opponent off balance and hit them in just the right spot at the right time. So, it is only those who are skilled in intelligent methods of fighting that would be especially good at it. Others could trip, but why bother when they are so strong. Plus, it could be that they felt that giving this ability to 24 strength, 8 int raging barbarians was too powerful.

Why does Improved Bullrush and Improved Overrun have a Power Attack feat prerequisite? What does doing more damage with your weapon have to do with pushing opponents with your *body*?

Because Power Attack is about pushing your strength to the max. It is about learning to channel it into one powerful thrust. Which can easily be translated from hitting someone hard with a weapon to hitting them hard to push them back.

Why is Eschew Materials not a metamagic feat? It illiminates a casting component, just like Silent and Still Spell, which not only are metamagic feats, but increase the spell level slot for the spell.

I'm virutally positive this one is due to the fact that metamagic feats make spells take full round actions for sorcerers. A lot of people view sorcerers as sort of "wizards who don't even know how to cast their spells, they just do it." So, it doesn't make sense that they'd be carrying around a bag of spell components for spells they don't really understand. So, a lot of people thought this was a great feat for sorcerers, take one feat and you no longer have to worry about components, so you could play the character you wanted.

However, it's kinda useless if it takes a full round action to cast every spell you have. So it couldn't be used for this purpose.

 

[Thaniel]

Why does Improved Grapple have a Dex 13 prerequisite? Dex doesn't even have anything to do with the grapple mechanic.

This reminds me of the scene The Princess Bride with The Man in Black wrestling with Fezzik. TMiB was obviously a better wrestler (a la GRAPPLE) than Fezzik. Not because of strength but because he was very dextrous. Makes sense to me.

 

[billd91]

Same as PA and Dodge... PBS is a very good feat but it's a pity again that every archer must absolutely take it to take nearly any other feat (and IMHO, while PBS is _great_, it is not _necessary_ at all, especially when compared with Precise Shot which should have been the root feat of the archery tree).

I like having PBS as the pre-requisite for precise shot exactly for the reason that precise shot is so important. I am quite content to have "weeder" feats that must be taken before the more important feats become available. It tests the PC's commitment to learning the more powerful feat. It's also a game balance thing. Is it worth 2 feats to negate a -4 penalty on a VERY common situation? Darn right it is.

Also, the way I see it, PBS as used in combat presumes that the PC is mastering the ability to draw a bead quickly on a nearby character and hit with some accuracy. Precise shot is taking that very skill to the next level because it negates a massive penalty when that target is mixed in with your allies. In other words, your ability to track and hit that guy has gotten much better in really tight and dangerous situations, a direct advancement on the skills learned with PBS. I'd even say that Precise shot is the most clear descendent of PBS in the tree.

 

[billd91]

I'm guessing because they are assuming that tripping in more of an advanced technique, you have to lure the opponent off balance and hit them in just the right spot at the right time. So, it is only those who are skilled in intelligent methods of fighting that would be especially good at it. Others could trip, but why bother when they are so strong. Plus, it could be that they felt that giving this ability to 24 strength, 8 int raging barbarians was too powerful.

Which, of course, isn't to say the barbarian can't still try to trip someone, he just doesn't have a leg up on getting the bonuses given by the feat unless he pays a high premium for it. I just want to underline that for some of these combat feats. Just because you don't have the feat or an easy route to the bonuses given by them, that doesn't mean the tactic is unavailable. It just means someone else has an easier route to getting really good at it through training rather than raw, natural talent (high stats).

 

[ARandomGod]

Why do the Sudden Metamagic feats not have the normal Metamagic feat as a prerequisite? "I can't prepare a silent spell, but I can cast a silent spell just off the top of my head, without even increasing the slot level."

I'm only going to do this one... mainly because I think the real answer is different from the answer for all the others.

The Sudden Metamagic feats exist because normal metamagic sucks. While not everyone may agree with the statement that normal metamagic feats suck, a LOT of people think that. So many thought it and complained about it and made house rules up around it that eventually the thought filtered back through the system, and the game designers created special feats that don't suck (at least not in the same way that normal Metamagic feats suck, I'm sure there are plenty of people who think the Sudden feats are bad too).

And so, since they were created from the base idea that metamagic sucks, having Sudden metamagic require it's non-sudden feat as a prerequisite would be very counterproductive.

 

[ARandomGod]

I like having PBS as the pre-requisite for precise shot exactly for the reason that precise shot is so important.
...<snip>...
Also, the way I see it, PBS as used in combat presumes that the PC is mastering the ability to draw a bead quickly on a nearby character and hit with some accuracy. Precise shot is taking that very skill to the next level because it negates a massive penalty when that target is mixed in with your allies.

While you missed the actual comparison, Point Blank and Far Shot, I still say you've gotten the reason. Point blank shot represents your ability to shoot better... but at this level it's only useful up close. Far shot represents your ability to apply this bonus, sort of, to shooting farther. You don't get any actual bonuses, per se, but knowing how to shoot more accurately (from PBS) is allowing you to shoot farther without a penalty, and even farther *with* a penalty than normal. If you can hit the eye of a person at 30 paces, you're better at hitting the person at 200.