Reply to thread

Message: <blockquote data-quote="Zurai" data-source="post: 3818002" data-attributes="member: 52324">We already agreed it only required Rogue 3, so the character does NOT neccesarily already have Uncanny Dodge.You toss out IUD and the rogue special abilities like they don't even matter.I disagree. Bards get: all of the Cure line of spells, Dispel Magic and its Greater variant, Tasha's Hideous Laughter, Glibness which is an insanely powerful spell for its level, Haste, Otto's Irresistable Dance, Geas, Find The Path - and that's just a quick 1 minute search of purely PHB spells.Yes, and skirmish, unarmed damage progression, grace/dodge bonus, and so on are also "a lot" of their respective classes - but they're given out in the combined class feats freely.Let's be consistent and move this to a 6th level example, since we both agree on a 3/3 requirement for the feat. That means a character that would have gone Rogue 6 gives up:<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">15 skill points (6 from levels + 9 to max Perform to actually use that bardic music)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">1d6 Sneak Attack</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Uncanny Dodge</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">+1 Trap Sense</li> </ul>to gain:<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">+1 Reflex and +3 Will saves</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">3/day bardic music (inspire courage +1, inspire competance, fascinate, countersong)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">+3 Bardic Knowledge</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">3 first level spells known that he can cast an absolute maximum of 3 times per day (with an 18 Charisma) - more likely 2/day.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">an alignment restriction</li> </ul>So, he's slightly more durable due to slightly higher saves, has a considerable amount fewer free skill points, has a nigh-useless amount of Bardic Knowledge, a handful of weak-for-his-level spells, and has bardic music that he can only use 3/day to very limited effect.That's a silly way to look at it (and incorrect anyway - it only grants +1 to inspire courage). If you were going for "OMG insane feat!!!!!111" you should have looked at it at level 20 with a bard 17/rogue 3: he gets 3 bardic music uses, Mass Suggestion, Inspire Courage +1, and +8d6 sneak attack for the price of one feat.Really? So a Druid/Barbarian needs 4 of the 6 attributes? By my count, they only need 2 (con and wis). Even a Fighter/Wizard or Fighter/Sorceror only needs 3 (Str, Con, and Int/Cha).It gives full bardic music and smite evil progression ... plus allows a paladin and a bard to multiclass in the first place (which would otherwise be impossible, as paladins MUST be lawful and bards MUST NOT be lawful). I'd say that's a pretty hefty combo feat, personally. The ability to freely multiclass between the two, combined with full bardic music progression and full smite progression, easily matches the SA + bardic music combination. It's quite frankly probably MORE powerful than the weaker feat I proposed (full sneak attack + inspire courage progression).</blockquote>

Verification