Feats that combine class features

[Torscha]

I'm thinking especially of those that work akin to Daring Outlaw from Complete Scoundrel. As I'm sure all of you know, Daring Outlaw allows Swashbuckler and Rogue levels to stack with regard to their class features, such as the Swashbuckler's Grace and Dodge bonuses, and the Rogue's sneak attack.

I was wondering what would be considered 'reasonable' for feats that allowed multiclass characters to continue benefitting from their class features. Should there be feats for combining class features from ANY class? Or is it all right if the classes have to be thematically linked, ie a feat that allows clerics who multiclass into related divine spellcasting classes to continue benefitting from Turn Undead and their Domain Powers.

More specifically, I was wondering if anyone thought a feat that allowed for the stacking of Sneak Attack and Bardic Music abilities would be considered balanced.

 

[Zurai]

I would say they have to be thematically linked.

In that vein, I'd definitely say that a feat that stacked Bard and Rogue levels for the purposes of Bardic Music and Sneak Attack (only) would be perfectly fine.

 

[Felnar]

those kind of feats can be quite potent, and to me seemed to be about powering up multiclass choices that are thematically appropriate but crippling

(i'm assuming the feat would require Rogue 3 / Bard 3 to get)
i think that full sneak attack AND full bardic music is overpowered
Bardic Music is over half the class abilities of the bard, as is Sneak Attack to the rogue. To me this feat comes close to making a gestalt character.

is the bard 4 / rogue 4 character crippled in effectiveness compared to other party members and to CR8 challenges? (the answer probably depends on how close to core-only you play)
what would they need to be not crippled? (my guess is a lot less than 4 more bardic music uses, a new song type, and +2d6 more sneak attack)

 

[Zurai]

Bardic Music is over half the class abilities of the bard, as is Sneak Attack to the rogue.

No, neither is. Bards still get up to 6th level arcane spellcasting, and Rogues get: Evasion, Trap Sense (spread out over 6 levels), Trapfinding, Uncanny Dodge, Improved Uncanny Dodge, and special abilities (spread out over 4 levels).

is the bard 4 / rogue 4 character crippled in effectiveness compared to other party members and to CR8 challenges?

Absolutely. A bard4/rogue4 has (offensively) 2d6 sneak attack and a maybe a single level 2 arcane spell. As an 8th level character. An 8th level bard would have 3rd level spells and improved inspire courage; An 8th level rogue would have 4d6 sneak attack and improved uncanny dodge.

what would they need to be not crippled? (my guess is a lot less than 4 more bardic music uses, a new song type, and +2d6 more sneak attack)

Full spellcasting. Which isn't gonna happen with a feat.


Generally, the "combine two classes" feats combine a strong class feature and a weak class feature, or two weak class features with a special effect. An example of the former is Swift Hunter, which combines skirmish and favored enemy for scout/rangers. An example of the latter is Devoted Tracker, which combines smite evil and wild empathy for paladin/rangers - but also lets the character combine his animal companion and special mount.

Bardic Music is a pretty weak class feature unless you devote your entire character to it. If the prospective bard/rogue is devoting all his feats and items to bardic music, then chances are his sneak attack isn't going to mean much because he won't be able to handle the damage involved in fighting in melee combat (the only attack method where sneak attack does any real good). Sneak attack is a strong class feature that only requires a moderate amount of support from the character. The combination also promotes MAD: rogues need dex, strength, and con to pull off a good TWF sneak attack build, and bards need charisma to cast spells. The two are, IMO, a good mix.

I would agree at putting the pre-reqs at "sneak attack +2d6 and inspire competence class ability" though. That requires a rogue 3/bard 3, which is the same total levels as most other Combined Class feats (most require either 5/1 or 3/3).


Another possibility: Make it stack sneak attack and bardic music uses/inspire courage only. The bard wouldn't get any of the higher-level bardic music uses.

 

[Felnar]

No, neither is. Bards still get up to 6th level arcane spellcasting, and Rogues get: Evasion, Trap Sense (spread out over 6 levels), Trapfinding, Uncanny Dodge, Improved Uncanny Dodge, and special abilities (spread out over 4 levels).

well, i guess we disagree
the rogue already got Evasion, Trapfinding, Trap Sense, and Uncanny Dodge out of the way in the first 4 levels. So that leaves Improved Uncanny Dodge, 4 special abilities, and several increases to Trap Sense (whats that ability even worth?)
Bard spellcasting, even at level 20 isnt stellar. Bardic Music is a lot of the class.

Absolutely. A bard4/rogue4 has (offensively) 2d6 sneak attack and a maybe a single level 2 arcane spell. As an 8th level character. An 8th level bard would have 3rd level spells and improved inspire courage; An 8th level rogue would have 4d6 sneak attack and improved uncanny dodge.

The 8th level rogue traded:

• 8 skill points
• 2d6 sneak attack
• one level of Trap Sense
• Improved Uncanny Dodge

for:

• Good Will Save (+3 higher than rogue 8) (and extra +2 reflex by RAW)
• Bardic Music, 4 uses (countersong, fascinate, inspire courage +1, inspire competence)
• Bardic Knowledge +4
• Bard Spell List
• three 0th level, three 1st level, and one 2nd level spell

I dont see that as crippling
do you still think there should be a single feat that gives: 2d6 sneak attack, 4 bardic music uses, and inspire courage +2?

Generally, the "combine two classes" feats combine a strong class feature and a weak class feature, or two weak class features with a special effect. An example of the former is Swift Hunter, which combines skirmish and favored enemy for scout/rangers. An example of the latter is Devoted Tracker, which combines smite evil and wild empathy for paladin/rangers - but also lets the character combine his animal companion and special mount.
...

Another possibility: Make it stack sneak attack and bardic music uses/inspire courage only. The bard wouldn't get any of the higher-level bardic music uses.

MAD isnt any more of a problem than it is for other caster/non-caster multiclassing

but thank you for reminding me about the 'Devoted' feats, i knew there were some "combine two classes" feats i was missing

take a look at 'Devoted Performer'. It gives almost nothing compared to either feat you're proposing.

Torscha- if your group does decide to use a new feat, please report back with how it worked out.

 

[Zurai]

well, i guess we disagree
the rogue already got Evasion, Trapfinding, Trap Sense, and Uncanny Dodge out of the way in the first 4 levels.

We already agreed it only required Rogue 3, so the character does NOT neccesarily already have Uncanny Dodge.

So that leaves Improved Uncanny Dodge, 4 special abilities, and several increases to Trap Sense (whats that ability even worth?)

You toss out IUD and the rogue special abilities like they don't even matter.

Bard spellcasting, even at level 20 isnt stellar.

I disagree. Bards get: all of the Cure line of spells, Dispel Magic and its Greater variant, Tasha's Hideous Laughter, Glibness which is an insanely powerful spell for its level, Haste, Otto's Irresistable Dance, Geas, Find The Path - and that's just a quick 1 minute search of purely PHB spells.

Bardic Music is a lot of the class.

Yes, and skirmish, unarmed damage progression, grace/dodge bonus, and so on are also "a lot" of their respective classes - but they're given out in the combined class feats freely.

The 8th level rogue traded:

• 8 skill points
• 2d6 sneak attack
• one level of Trap Sense
• Improved Uncanny Dodge

for:

• Good Will Save (+3 higher than rogue 8) (and extra +2 reflex by RAW)
• Bardic Music, 4 uses (countersong, fascinate, inspire courage +1, inspire competence)
• Bardic Knowledge +4
• Bard Spell List
• three 0th level, three 1st level, and one 2nd level spell

I dont see that as crippling

Let's be consistent and move this to a 6th level example, since we both agree on a 3/3 requirement for the feat. That means a character that would have gone Rogue 6 gives up:

• 15 skill points (6 from levels + 9 to max Perform to actually use that bardic music)
• 1d6 Sneak Attack
• Uncanny Dodge
• +1 Trap Sense

to gain:

• +1 Reflex and +3 Will saves
• 3/day bardic music (inspire courage +1, inspire competance, fascinate, countersong)
• +3 Bardic Knowledge
• 3 first level spells known that he can cast an absolute maximum of 3 times per day (with an 18 Charisma) - more likely 2/day.
• an alignment restriction

So, he's slightly more durable due to slightly higher saves, has a considerable amount fewer free skill points, has a nigh-useless amount of Bardic Knowledge, a handful of weak-for-his-level spells, and has bardic music that he can only use 3/day to very limited effect.

do you still think there should be a single feat that gives: 2d6 sneak attack, 4 bardic music uses, and inspire courage +2?

That's a silly way to look at it (and incorrect anyway - it only grants +1 to inspire courage). If you were going for "OMG insane feat!!!!!111" you should have looked at it at level 20 with a bard 17/rogue 3: he gets 3 bardic music uses, Mass Suggestion, Inspire Courage +1, and +8d6 sneak attack for the price of one feat.

MAD isnt any more of a problem than it is for other caster/non-caster multiclassing

Really? So a Druid/Barbarian needs 4 of the 6 attributes? By my count, they only need 2 (con and wis). Even a Fighter/Wizard or Fighter/Sorceror only needs 3 (Str, Con, and Int/Cha).

take a look at 'Devoted Performer'. It gives almost nothing compared to either feat you're proposing.

It gives full bardic music and smite evil progression ... plus allows a paladin and a bard to multiclass in the first place (which would otherwise be impossible, as paladins MUST be lawful and bards MUST NOT be lawful). I'd say that's a pretty hefty combo feat, personally. The ability to freely multiclass between the two, combined with full bardic music progression and full smite progression, easily matches the SA + bardic music combination. It's quite frankly probably MORE powerful than the weaker feat I proposed (full sneak attack + inspire courage progression).

 

[Aus_Snow]

Really? So a Druid/Barbarian needs 4 of the 6 attributes? By my count, they only need 2 (con and wis).

3: + Str.

 

[Zurai]

Druids don't need strength, they wildshape into dire bears instead.

 

[Bryon_Soulweaver]

Heh. I can see why Complete Scoundrel is kinda unbalanced.

[sblock]Have your first level be a ninja, second level be a fighter, then just have the rest of your class progression be a monk. For the bonus feat (since you've got two already, one more can't hurt) at level 2, take the Martial Stalker feat for, you know, stacking ki pool, AC bonus, and bonus feats. Take the next four levels as a monk and take the Ascentic Stalker feat for stacking unarmed strike damage, as well as its ki strike, and ki pool. Finally, for the remaining fourteen levels you'll have to advance as a ninja so that you can get the best, in my opinion, of all three classes. Semi-full BAB; ki strike (magic, law, adamantine); ki pool (ghost step, ki dodge, ghost strike, greater ki dodge); 11 bonus feats; umarmed strike 2d8; evasion; still mind; sudden strike 8d6; slow fall 20 ft; great leap; ghost step (invisible, ethereal); improved poison use; speed climb; ghost mind; trapfinding; acrobatics +4.[/sblock]

Ahhh, forget I said anything.

 

[Aleolus]

Well, there are the Aescetic feats, which let Monk and other classes multiclass and stack, then there are another sequence that do the same thing with Paladin. Most of them are in the Complete Adventurer, except for Aescetic Stalker (Monk/Ninja), which is in the Complete Scoundrel.