D&D 5E Dual-classing house rules?

[Irlo]

Since the rogue/wizard in this example does not get the Roguish Archetype at 3rd level, what happens at 9th, 13th, and 17th? Do they chose a feature from any archetype they want? Do they need to be consistent throughout the progression, or can they take features from various archetypes?

 

[TwoSix]

Choose two classes. Dual-classing allows you to knit these classes together in unique ways. At 1st level and each level thereafter, choose whether to take the class features (and Hit Dice) from class A or class B.

The exception are chart progression features (spells, Sneak Attack), which progress sequentially using that class’ chart. In the case of two spellcasting classes, use the multiclassing rules (i.e. universal spell slots).

For example, say you want to play a Rogue/Wizard dual-class character, and you're at 8th character level. You must have Dex 13+ and Int 13+. You might select Rogue for levels 1, 3, and 5 (3d8 hit points, Dex/Int saves, Rogue proficiencies, Expertise, Sneak Attack 2d6 as a 3rd level rogue, Thieves’ Cant, Roguish Archetype, Uncanny Dodge), while you select Wizard for levels 2, 4, 6, 7, and 8 (5d6 hit points, Spellcasting as a 5th level wizard, Arcane Tradition, 6th level Arcane Tradition feature, and two Ability Score Improvements).

I'm a little confused...I'm not seeing anything here that explains why they get spellcasting at level 1 if they don't pick wizard as their level 1 "class pick", as per your example in post #7. I mean, it's your rule, I'm just not quite clear on how the text explains that extra gain.

What would the spellcasting look like if the "class A" was a ranger (half-caster), warlock (pact caster), or cleric (second full caster) instead of rogue? Assume class A was taken at 1,3, and 5 like the previous example.

To be clear, I'm not shooting your idea down, I'm actually quite interested; I just want to nail down the particulars to generate some example characters.

 

[Irlo]

Seems like just about everyone would want to just take fighter 2 and 5 for action surge and extra attack, then.

I dunno - this just seems like a way to make multi-class even more abusable.

Agree. It's difficult to predict what combos might be available to clever players armed with a spreadsheet and ambition.

 

[Quickleaf]

I'm a little confused...I'm not seeing anything here that explains why they get spellcasting at level 1 if they don't pick wizard as their level 1 "class pick", as per your example in post #7. I mean, it's your rule, I'm just not quite clear on how the text explains that extra gain.

What would the spellcasting look like if the "class A" was a ranger (half-caster), warlock (pact caster), or cleric (second full caster) instead of rogue? Assume class A was taken at 1,3, and 5 like the previous example.

To be clear, I'm not shooting your idea down, I'm actually quite interested; I just want to nail down the particulars to generate some example characters.

You know, you're right. Nothing about it needs to have Spellcasting at level 1. For some reason I imagined it that way, but you're right it's not what I wrote.

 

[Irlo]

Deleted. Nevermind.

 

[Quickleaf]

Since the rogue/wizard in this example does not get the Roguish Archetype at 3rd level, what happens at 9th, 13th, and 17th? Do they chose a feature from any archetype they want? Do they need to be consistent throughout the progression, or can they take features from various archetypes?

Good question. My initial thought is that's a sacrifice they make so they don't get any class features from advancing as rogue at character levels 9, 13, and 17.

For example, if a dual-class PC has taken 4 levels as rogue, then at character level 9 wants to take a 5th level as rogue, they would gain rogue Hit Dice and Sneak Attack would go up to 3d6, but they would not gain the 9th level Roguish Archetype feature.

 

[ezo]

@ezo Thanks for your examples. How did your group like those two approaches in comparison? Were players who wanted to dual-class (or whatever you called it) happier with the "new class as subclass" version?

You're most welcome!

The first version was a lot of fun because it gave us a lot of options for each round. Fortunately, the synergies were also a bit limited due to things like action enconmy. In the fighter/rogue example (one of the PCs in that game), he wanted to two-weapon fight a lot, but the cost of the bonus action competed with his use of cunning action, which also competed with second wind, etc.

We did the first version because it was our first run with 5E because we only had a few players, but wanted to have more of the classes/ roles covered.

The second option was derived by recognizing you can make an "Eldritch Knight" by playing a Fighter who takes Wizard as a subclass. This allows for all sort of combinations, of course, and appealed also when a player had a PC but didn't "feel" any of the offered subclasses really worked for them.

The full version is a bit more complex. In summary, you get one "subclass feature" award per tier. Here is ahow a Fighter subclass Cleric would play out. Because Fighters have 5 subclass award levels instead of the normal 4, as DM you would have to decide for the last two award if you wanted to use levels 10 and 15, 10 and 18, or 15 and 18. Technically, 15 would be tier 3 and 18 would be tier 4. 10th level is tier 2, which was already awarded at 7th level...

I forgot to clarify earlier:

First subclass award: gain level 1 of a second class.
Second subclass award: gain levels 2 and 3 features.
Third subclass award: gain level 4 and 5 features.
Last subclass award: gain levels 6 and 7 features.

This way casters as subclass will get up to 4th level spells, akin to what Eldritch Knights and Arcane Tricksters.

Oh, and obviously, your class as subclass class does not gain a subclass itself.

 

[Quickleaf]

Seems like just about everyone would want to just take fighter 2 and 5 for action surge and extra attack, then.

I dunno - this just seems like a way to make multi-class even more abusable.

Edit: or imagine a blade singer who could take 17 levels in wizard, plus fighter 5, 11, and 20 to get four attacks per action, along with their full slate of wizard spells. Unless I'm missing something.

Almost. One of the key differences is that the Bladesinger subclass's Extra Attack feature IS NOT the same as the Fighter's Extra Attack feature. Specifically, the Bladesinger's Extra Attack stipulates:

Starting at 6th level, you can attack twice, instead of once, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn. Moreover, you can cast one of your cantrips in place of one of those attacks.

Thus, a bladesinger who got all their Extra Attacks via cherry-picking those fighter levels would NOT be able to cast cantrips in place of one of their attacks.

Edit: Ahhhh, it's at 6th level - that is a curveball.

 

[TwoSix]

Good question. My initial thought is that's a sacrifice they make so they don't get any class features from advancing as rogue at character levels 9, 13, and 17.

For example, if a dual-class PC has taken 4 levels as rogue, then at character level 9 wants to take a 5th level as rogue, they would gain rogue Hit Dice and Sneak Attack would go up to 3d6, but they would not gain the 9th level Roguish Archetype feature.

Theoretically, you could treat the "Subclass feature" as a stacking feature; the first time you gain the subclass feature, you pick the subclass and gain the first subclass feature, even if you picked it at level 15 (or whatever). Every additional time you gain it, you gain the next one.

 

[Quickleaf]

Theoretically, you could treat the "Subclass feature" as a stacking feature; the first time you gain the subclass feature, you pick the subclass and gain the first subclass feature, even if you picked it at level 15 (or whatever). Every additional time you gain it, you gain the next one.

Yeah, that's a more generous interpretation, and ameliorates some of the ideal options like fighter/artificer as @jmartkdr2 mentioned. Of course, this whole wild idea is definitely breaking up the core class structure and is hugely prone to abuse like @Clint_L pointed out.

I'm trying to get a feel for is it breaking within manageable parameters, such that the increased fun options could be worth a little headache? Or is it inviting stuff that's so utterly broken there is no "sane management option"? Basically, where am I on the 1-to-10 scale of This Is Nuts?