D&D (2024) Dual Wielding

[Crimson Longinus]

I tell you I disagree.

You then mock my math ability without showing any math or reasoning yourself.

Wake up on the wrong side of the bed?

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to be rude. It's just that we've already had several threads about it, so didn't want to go it all over again here. But with the right weapon it is about +1 damage and with a wrong one it is even less. That's not great when duelling gives you flat +2.

 

[FrogReaver]

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to be rude. It's just that we've already had several threads about it, so didn't want to go it all over again here. But with the right weapon it is about +1 damage and with a wrong one it is even less. That's not great when duelling gives you flat +2.

Thanks.

So I agree there are weapons it is bad on. Just not all.

I dont agree that one can adaquately compare styles in isolation. So saying dueling does more is a ‘so what?’ from me.

What I think we all agree on is that defense style is fine. Since GWF style compares well with it in simulations, then GWF style should be viewed as similar in effectiveness to defense style.

Most people seem to either overrate the +1 ac or underrate the +1 damage in the GWF best case.

 

[Weiley31]

So, does that mean, WITHOUT USING ACTION SURGE, a Level 20 fighter can do up to six attacks? Four fighter attacks, Nick Mastery Bonus Action, plus Dual-Wielder/Two Weapon Fighting Second attack?

 

[fluffybunbunkittens]

So, does that mean, WITHOUT USING ACTION SURGE, a Level 20 fighter can do up to six attacks? Four fighter attacks, Nick Mastery Bonus Action, plus Dual-Wielder/Two Weapon Fighting Second attack?

4 base + 1 Nick + 1 Dual-Wielder.

It's a simple thing, written awkwardly.

 

[Weiley31]

4 base + 1 Nick + 1 Dual-Wielder.

It's a simple thing, written awkwardly.

Dang, if that's the case then I may not eliminate Nick from my 5e games then.

 

[fluffybunbunkittens]

I wish they got the fighting style option without having to multiclass

Would make sense as a delayed feature (around lv6?). As is, that 1-level dip into Fighter still gets you more damage than 2 levels of Rogue would.

 

[Mistwell]

Would make sense as a delayed feature (around lv6?). As is, that 1-level dip into Fighter still gets you more damage than 2 levels of Rogue would.

Exactly. And Second Wind, and 2 more weapon masteries, and more hit points, and more weapon proficiencies, and medium armor proficiency, and shield proficiency. That's quite a lot for essentially a one level delay in sneak attack. I don't like multiclassing much myself, but that's a lot of flexibility there. And you don't even need a 13 strength as Fighters require either Strength or Dexterity.

 

[fluffybunbunkittens]

That's quite a lot for essentially a one level delay in sneak attack.

Yep, I'm a firm believer in Fighter/Rogues! Works both ways, either as a dip or a more equal arrangement.

And Paladin/Ranger/Rogue, who do get weapon masteries but only two of them, do really benefit from multiclassing with someone else with them, because you often do want that 3rd weapon option.

 

[Kinematics]

A minor detail on attack ordering that I didn't have in my original post:

The Light weapon rules do not mention attacking with the offhand weapon. I think this is deliberate. @UngeheuerLich already mentioned one use case that this helps with (getting Vex on the final attack), but I want to expand on it a little.

This ordering depends on having Extra Attack. It makes use of First Form dual wielding. It's primarily relevant when you are using the Dual Wielder feat.

Basically, the default assumption when dual wielding is that your mainhand weapon is used to trigger your offhand weapon attack as the Bonus Action attack (ignoring Nick). So if you were wielding a rapier + dagger, your mainhand would be the dagger so that you could use the Dual Wielder bonus attack with the rapier (a non-light weapon). This feels frustrating and awkward when trying to imagine it actually play out.

However the Light property rules do not specify the order of operations, or which hand has to trigger the extra attack. This means you can have the rapier in your main hand, and the dagger in your off hand, and it still works. What happens would be:

Attack 1: Rapier
Attack 2 (Extra Attack): Dagger; triggers Dual Wielder feature
Attack 3 (Bonus Action): Rapier

This way you get two attacks with the heavier weapon, rather than two attacks with the lighter weapon and one attack with the heavier weapon (as might be implied by a simple reading of the Dual Wielder feat).

This has potential further implications when combined with Nick, but I'm going to put that in a separate post.

 

[Kinematics]

There has been a default assumption about how Nick works that I think might not be true. If it is not, it opens up some interesting new approaches to dual wielding.

First, the Nick rule, plus the Vex rule for a point of contrast:

When you make the extra attack of the Light property, you can make it as part of the Attack action instead of as a Bonus Action. You can make this extra attack only once per turn.

If you hit a creature with this weapon and deal damage to the creature, you have Advantage on your next attack roll against that creature before the end of your next turn.

A default assumption on the use of Nick is that it has to be on the weapon that you make the extra attack with. That is, if you attacked with a shortsword + scimitar, the scimitar would be the offhand weapon because that's what you're making the extra attack with, and thus would have to be the weapon with the Nick property in order to gain its benefit.

However, if you look at the above property descriptions, you'll note that the Vex property specifies "with this weapon" in order to gain its effects. In fact, every single other weapon mastery does this — Cleave, Slow, Push, etc. The only weapon mastery that does not include "with this weapon" in its language is Nick.

This doesn't really matter with the default dual wielding that the Light property grants because the only weapons that can be combined are all Light weapons, which means you likely want to use the other weapon's weapon mastery as your main attack anyway.

But it gets more interesting when combined with the Dual Wielder feat. As I described in my above post about attack ordering, you don't have to offhand your heavier weapon as long as you have Extra Attack available. However the heavier weapon will never have Nick, because Nick is a property that is only available on Light weapons.

However, because Nick is not restricted to "this weapon", that means that the bonus attack granted by Dual Wielder doesn't have to be a Bonus Action attack.

Going back to the Rapier + Dagger combo, the dagger has the Nick property. It's now possible to consider the order of attacks like this:

Attack 1: Rapier (Vex)
Attack 2: Dagger (Nick); triggers Dual Wielder bonus attack
Attack 3: Rapier (Vex); made as part of the Attack action, not a Bonus Action


In the case of a Rogue without Extra Attack, they can't use the rapier as the first attack because that's their only default attack, and they need to use a Light weapon to trigger the dual wielding attack. However, should they have the Dual Wielder feat, this benefit regarding Nick should still apply.

Attack 1: Dagger (Nick)
Attack 2: Rapier (Vex) as part of the Attack action

Which leaves the Bonus Action free for Cunning Action or whatever.