Feats that combine class features

[Zurai]

Semi-full BAB; ki strike (magic, law, adamantine); ki pool (ghost step, ki dodge, ghost strike, greater ki dodge); 11 bonus feats; umarmed strike 2d8; evasion; still mind; sudden strike 8d6; slow fall 20 ft; great leap; ghost step (invisible, ethereal); improved poison use; speed climb; ghost mind; trapfinding; acrobatics +4.

You need to read the text of the feat, not just the table entry. The fighter combo feats don't give bonus feats, they give access to feats that require X levels of fighter.

 

[Bryon_Soulweaver]

You need to read the text of the feat, not just the table entry. The fighter combo feats don't give bonus feats, they give access to feats that require X levels of fighter.

Oh. Yeah, well, didn't see that there. So you get 2 bonus feats instead of 11, no biggie. But you gotta admit; the rest of the abilities are pretty cool and all you need to do is have high INT and WIS attributes for the cool AC bonus and lots of skills.

 

[Felnar]

We already agreed it only required Rogue 3, so the character does NOT neccesarily already have Uncanny Dodge.

true, but its highly likely that the character does

You toss out IUD and the rogue special abilities like they don't even matter.

my point is that powerwise, sneak attack makes up over half of power gained in the last 16 levels of rogue. The rogue specials and IUD arent lost, they just have access delayed (well, likely a couple of the rogue specials are lost)

I disagree. Bards get: all of the Cure line of spells, Dispel Magic and its Greater variant, Tasha's Hideous Laughter, Glibness which is an insanely powerful spell for its level, Haste, Otto's Irresistable Dance, Geas, Find The Path - and that's just a quick 1 minute search of purely PHB spells.

Bard suffers the same problem all casters have with multiclassing with a non-casting class. That problem is normally dealt with a PrC tho, not a single feat.
Also, i put Bard Spell List as an ability because it grants wand/scroll/staff use.

Yes, and skirmish, unarmed damage progression, grace/dodge bonus, and so on are also "a lot" of their respective classes - but they're given out in the combined class feats freely.

the combine rogue/scout feat only combines for skirmish, not sneak. a rogue/bard feat would have to be a little more powerful than that, to restore some power lost to caster/non-caster multiclassing.

Let's be consistent and move this to a 6th level example, since we both agree on a 3/3 requirement for the feat. That means a character that would have gone Rogue 6 gives up:
...list snipped...
So, he's slightly more durable due to slightly higher saves, has a considerable amount fewer free skill points, has a nigh-useless amount of Bardic Knowledge, a handful of weak-for-his-level spells, and has bardic music that he can only use 3/day to very limited effect.

The combine feats are a little odd because the scale in power. They are inherently inconsistent. So what level should it be balanced at? Level 20? probably not because level 20 is a very small portion of the game and many groups never even play at that level. You could always compare it at 6th level, but really 8th is just as suitable (if not more likely) of a place for the feat to be in play.

i assumed a Charisma of 16. if you're using standard 25 pointbuy, possibly 14 Cha is more reasonable.

That's a silly way to look at it (and incorrect anyway - it only grants +1 to inspire courage). If you were going for "OMG insane feat!!!!!111" you should have looked at it at level 20 with a bard 17/rogue 3: he gets 3 bardic music uses, Mass Suggestion, Inspire Courage +1, and +8d6 sneak attack for the price of one feat.

1. i wasnt saying it raised inspire courage by +2, it's meant as 'to +2'. i copied it off the bard class ability table.
2. i didnt need to use level 20 to make it look like an 'OMG insane feat'

Really? So a Druid/Barbarian needs 4 of the 6 attributes? By my count, they only need 2 (con and wis). Even a Fighter/Wizard or Fighter/Sorceror only needs 3 (Str, Con, and Int/Cha).

The druid is an exception, so probably not the best baseline example(tho possible). The fighter/caster increases its MAD to 4. Str and Con for melee, Int/Cha for casting, and Dex to replace the lost fullplate.

It gives full bardic music and smite evil progression ... plus allows a paladin and a bard to multiclass in the first place (which would otherwise be impossible, as paladins MUST be lawful and bards MUST NOT be lawful). I'd say that's a pretty hefty combo feat, personally. The ability to freely multiclass between the two, combined with full bardic music progression and full smite progression, easily matches the SA + bardic music combination. It's quite frankly probably MORE powerful than the weaker feat I proposed (full sneak attack + inspire courage progression).

you should heed the advice you gave Bryon_Soulweaver. Devoted Performer does not give "full bardic music and smite evil progression". It stack levels for # of bardic music uses a day and for bonus damage on smite evil (not uses a day). As i said, it gives almost nothing compared to either feat you're proposing.

 

[Zurai]

I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on whether it would be balanced or not.

I will freely admit to screwing up the analysis of Devoted Performer, though. I did read it - twice, even, to make sure I'd read the alignment part correctly - but I didn't process that it only increased music uses/day, not the types of music available. My apologies there.

 

[Imp]

In that vein, I'd definitely say that a feat that stacked Bard and Rogue levels for the purposes of Bardic Music and Sneak Attack (only) would be perfectly fine.

Thematically, it'd be pretty cool if the feat allowed the rogue/bard to really unload on a fascinated target.